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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What? I said that you needed to do so in order to make any sense.
    No, you didn't.

    You simply said that I hadn't done it.

    And I said I hadn't attempted to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "Coming up with some" what?
    More possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You can't say at once that certain types are more masculine/feminine than others (in essence) and then come back and say that this essence is only applicable in certain domains of life. Either some types (or individuals) are more masculine/feminine than others, period, or every type exercises a fluidity in masculinity/femininity that adapts to the different circumstances of life. If the former, it is fair to say that more masculine types might be attracted to more feminine types (and vise versa.) If the latter, you cannot say anything about the mate selection preferences of ANY type because they may manifest their masculinity/femininity in vastly different ways depending on type, individual, background, and, most importantly, circumstance. So you cannot say that NT women at once desire feminine mates AND a dominant masculine mate to "ravish" them, and that this is a trait peculiar to NTs (much less NT women.) It's either one or the other, or it's not determined by type.
    Sim, please read this and understand why it is that I Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well I reserve my admonitions for people who seemingly can't help but commit the fallacy of the false fallacy.
    Not being able to come up with strong alternative counterarguments is the same as setting up a straw man.

    That's why I told you to come up with more possibilities.

    Go back and read the whole conversation. You sound like... I'm gunna stop myself here.

    *

    Honestly, I'm done with this argument.

    I don't really feel like explaining each logical connection step by step to some weak Ti user who doesn't get it.

    I've got better things to do.

  2. #42
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Blah blah blah
    M'kay.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #43
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    Fuck it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You can't say at once that certain types are more masculine/feminine than others (in essence) and then come back and say that this essence is only applicable in certain domains of life.

    Either some types (or individuals) are more masculine/feminine than others, period,

    or

    every type exercises a fluidity in masculinity/femininity that adapts to the different circumstances of life.

    ...

    It's either one or the other, or it's not determined by type.
    Where you fail has been bolded.

    The reason I told you to drum up more possibilities is because I have one very plausible one sitting in my head at this very moment (and have had it there from the get-go) that you obviously haven't yet thought up, that very clearly answers your question.

    I'll give you a go though.

    Try to come up with a possibility to answer this question.

    Ruminate on it for as long as you might take.

    Then let me know it once you think you got it.

    I'll let you know whether it's the same one I have in my head.

    If it's not, then maybe you came up with another good explanation, or maybe you still haven't figured out as good of an answer as mine yet.

    If it is, congratulations.

    In two out of those three cases, you're on your way to critical thinking.

  4. #44
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    zarathustra's musings suggest that T women and F men are somehow inherently broken or at odds with their gender, which is patronising, offensive and a strange thing to argue.

    the ability to analyse is gender-neutral as is the ability to feel. why do you want to project notions of gender onto those traits?

    if you're talking about femininity in terms of appearance; one's capacity to have long hair and look hot in a tight dress is not type-specific.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    zarathustra's musings suggest that T women and F men are somehow inherently broken or at odds with their gender, which is patronising, offensive and a strange thing to argue.
    That is sort of what I argue.

    If you find it patronizing, offensive, or strange: that is simply your interpretation.

    I'm just laying out the facts as I see them.

    And I know my ENFP girlfriend largely agrees with me.

    Hell, even YWIR said I'm pretty much accurate.

    Of course, as an ENTJ (which I called, along with ESTJ, the most masculine of the types), she is probably more masculine than you (an ENTP, which I called rather low on the masculine side), and, as such, may better understand my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    the ability to analyse is gender-neutral as is the ability to feel. why do you want to project notions of gender onto those traits?
    I never said the ability to analyze or to feel is gender-specific, and I feel no such thing.

    I simply said that Ts tend to be more masculine, and Fs tend to be more feminine.

    If you can't see the difference, that's your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    if you're talking about femininity in terms of appearance; one's capacity to have long hair and look hot in a tight dress is not type-specific.
    I'm talking about femininity in terms of behavior.

    Maybe you don't understand what that is very well.

    I've essentially heard as much about Australian women.

  6. #46
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    you're not even pretending to not be a troll anymore.

  7. #47
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    What the hell is the definition of a troll then?

    Cuz I obviously pointed out plenty of genuine and real problems with your analysis.

    Just cuz I decided to flame broil it, doesn't change that fact.

  8. #48
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    Zarathustra has been thread banned for flaming. Please don't do that kids.

    Resume topic: NT wimminz

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    That is sort of what I argue.

    If you find it patronizing, offensive, or strange: that is simply your interpretation.

    I'm just laying out the facts as I see them.

    And I know my ENFP girlfriend largely agrees with me.

    Hell, even YWIR said I'm pretty much accurate.

    Of course, as an ENTJ (which I called, along with ESTJ, the most masculine of the types), she is probably more masculine than you (an ENTP, which I called rather low on the masculine side), and, as such, may better understand my point.


    Maybe analysis is actually more gender-specific than I previously thought, cuz you seem to have done a piss-poor job analyzing what I said.
    I never said the ability to analyze or to feel is gender-specific, and I feel no such thing.

    I simply said that Ts tend to be more masculine, and Fs tend to be more feminine.
    If you can't see the difference, that's your problem.


    I'm talking about femininity in terms of behaviour.
    Maybe you don't understand what that is very well.
    I've essentially heard as much about Australian women.

    I STILL agree with you. Maybe they're misreading what you are saying, or are offended by your view point. I have no idea. O_O... I don't think you are trolling.

    I have noticed the same thing. Most NT females DO tend to emulate a more "masculine" quality, as do most NF men with the "feminine" quality( or how society defines feminine and masculine qualities for each sex-- there have been plenty of of great and diverse discussions on TypoC).



    ---------------------------- ON TOPIC

    I think NT women are great for relationships that require independence and very little " feeling"-talk from both partners involved.
    I however, have mentioned that it's a pain in the ass when it comes to " talking about what you are feeling" or "Where is this going". God that's awkward.. ><!
    I never want to be in that situation again.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    ladidadida
    I'm not going to respond to your patronizing and juvenile post by flaming you. I understand that the fallacy you've been trying to point out in my post is the false dilemma (though you've confused this with the straw man.) Quite simply, you claim that:

    (1) All people have a mixture of masculinity and femininity.
    (2) This mixture varies in composition depending on personality type.
    (3) NTs tend to have more masculinity and less femininity.
    (4) More masculine/less feminine types are attracted to more feminine types.
    (5) More masculine/less feminine types are still attracted, in their heart of hearts, to more masculine types.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Therefore...

    (C1) NTs are attracted to more feminine types.
    (C2) NTs are attracted to more masculine types.

    You are saying that these incompatible conclusions are indeed compatible because, with your spectacular "outside the box" thinking, you imagined a scenario in which an NT could be at once both more masculine/less feminine and, because of their lesser feminine side, still attracted to more masculine types.

    I don't deny that this scenario is possible (or even probable, I wouldn't know.) I'm sure that there are NTs in the world that are more masculine/less feminine that, because of their lesser feminine side dominating in certain domains of life (i.e., relationships), nevertheless desire to be "ravished" by another more masculine/less feminine type.

    But I do deny that your argument provides any plausible explanation for this possibility. I deny it because you can't assign dominant masculinity/femininity (even generally) to personality types and say that these qualities determine attraction to ANY degree (#2, #3, and #4 above) IF it is the case that the less dominant quality (for lack of a better word) can play, for whatever reason, just as determinate a role. That would mean that masculinity/femininity plays no significant role in determining attraction, and that it is rather the qualities of the individual or his/her circumstances (or whatever...something biological, for instance) that plays the bigger role. In other words, accepting your claim that NTs are more masculine than feminine, I could equally desire a more feminine/less masculine partner because of my dominant masculinity as I could a more masculine/less feminine partner because of my lesser, though (according to you) no less powerful or determinate, femininity.

    Also, to admonish someone for failing to "think outside of the box" is indeed a moral judgment. You are essentially telling me that I ought to be more creative in my future posts. If you do not see that that is a moral judgment, then it is simply because you do not properly understand the meaning of the phrase "moral judgment."
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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