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  1. #31
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    I myself am very masculine.
    :yim_rolling_on_the_
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
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  2. #32
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Wow.

    So simple-minded...

    Ever heard of complexity?

    The masculine and the feminine can be present in various degrees at various times within the same individual.

    Thus, to say someone is masculine, is to say that one is masculine more of the time, and feminine less of the time.

    I myself am very masculine, but that does not mean that I have no femininity.

    My girlfriend is extremely feminine, but that does not mean that she has no masculinity.

    I understand that you use Ti and all, but try thinking outside the box a little bit...
    You've not distinguished fundamental or essential degrees of masculinity/femininity from this idea of an "exterior" or mask of masculinity/femininity. The latter formulation diminishes the authenticity of the person's exterior presentation, suggesting that someone may in fact be fundamentally more feminine, but project, for whatever reason (perhaps for work purposes), a more masculine presentation. Or vise versa. This distinction is very important because one (the essential) will obviously play a greater role in mate choice than the other (the apparent.) That is, unless you want to claim that all women with more masculine personalities have BDSM or sub/dom preoccupations. And if it is the case that the female NT's conflict between greater masculinity and lesser, but still present, femininity causes conflicting desires (both to dominate, and to be dominated, or "ravished," as you say), simply by virtue of the coexistence and mixture of masculinity and femininity in their personalities, then this must be true for every type. Every type has this problem.

    Also, save your petty "think outside of the box" moralizing for someone else.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I myself am very masculine...
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    :yim_rolling_on_the_
    You can ask my girlfriend.

    She's posted in this thread.


  4. #34
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    L

    First, you say that NTs are generally more masculine than a lot of the other types. Then, you go on to say that NT women are really feminine inside, but use a masculine exterior as a mask. So which is it? Are they really masculine, or are they faking it? You've contradicted yourself in your own post. It's hard to take your opinion seriously after that.
    I don't know about other NT females. But I for one am rather feminine in my personal life( in a relationship specifically); but outside of it, I presume a more "masculine" role compared to who I am at home; It's not really a mask, It's a strategy that works. ( for ME anyways)

    So He is sort of right.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You've not distinguished fundamental or essential degrees of masculinity/femininity from this idea of an "exterior" or mask of masculinity/femininity.
    Did I claim I ever attempted to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    The latter formulation diminishes the authenticity of the person's exterior presentation, suggesting that someone may in fact be fundamentally more feminine, but project, for whatever reason (perhaps for work purposes), a more masculine presentation.
    It doesn't necessarily diminish its authenticity.

    Once again, this is why I told you to think outside the box more.

    One could have a perfectly authentic masculine self that one extroverts much of the time, while, at the very same time, having a softer, more feminine self that one only presents when one feels "safe and secure".

    And that is just one possibility. There are many more. Try thinking outside the box and coming up with some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Also, save your petty "think outside of the box" moralizing for someone else.
    I reserve it for people who seemingly can't help but put up straw men.

    And it's really not moralizing, either...

    It's simply asking for better thinking...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by You'reWrongI'mRight View Post
    I don't know about other NT females. But I for one am rather feminine in my personal life; but outside of it, I presume a more "masculine" role compared to who I am at home; It's not really a mask, It's a strategy that works. ( for ME anyways)
    Exactly.

    Particularly the bolded.

    And that's interesting YWIR, cuz you strike me as extremely masculine on the site.

    Although, in your pictures, I suppose you seem less so...

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That is, unless you want to claim that all women with more masculine personalities have BDSM or sub/dom preoccupations. And if it is the case that the female NT's conflict between greater masculinity and lesser, but still present, femininity causes conflicting desires (both to dominate, and to be dominated, or "ravished," as you say), simply by virtue of the coexistence and mixture of masculinity and femininity in their personalities, then this must be true for every type. Every type has this problem.
    Sorry, just saw your added.

    Yeah, every type might have some degree of this problem, but that doesn't mean it isn't a bigger problem for certain types than it is for others (depending on the person's gender).

    My point is that for women who tend to be more masculine (i.e., NTs; maybe Ts in general), and for men to who tend to be more feminine (i.e., NFs; maybe Fs in general), this is likely a bigger problem.

  8. #38
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Did I claim I ever attempted to?
    What? I said that you needed to do so in order to make any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It doesn't necessarily diminish its authenticity.

    Once again, this is why I told you to think outside the box more.

    One could have a perfectly authentic masculine self that one extroverts much of the time, while, at the very same time, having a softer, more feminine self that one only presents when one feels "safe and secure".

    And that is just one possibility. There are many more. Try thinking outside the box and coming up with some.
    "Coming up with some" what?

    You can't say at once that certain types are more masculine/feminine than others (in essence) and then come back and say that this essence is only applicable in certain domains of life. Either some types (or individuals) are more masculine/feminine than others, period, or every type exercises a fluidity in masculinity/femininity that adapts to the different circumstances of life. If the former, it is fair to say that more masculine types might be attracted to more feminine types (and vise versa.) If the latter, you cannot say anything about the mate selection preferences of ANY type because they may manifest their masculinity/femininity in vastly different ways depending on type, individual, background, and, most importantly, circumstance. So you cannot say that NT women at once desire feminine mates AND a dominant masculine mate to "ravish" them, and that this is a trait peculiar to NTs (much less NT women.) It's either one or the other, or it's not determined by type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I reserve it for people who seemingly can't help but put up straw men.
    Well I reserve my admonitions for people who seemingly can't help but commit the fallacy of the false fallacy.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #39
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Exactly.

    Particularly the bolded.

    And that's interesting YWIR, cuz you strike me as extremely masculine on the site.

    Although, in your pictures, I suppose you seem less so...
    Score. What every chick wants to hear... hahahaha

  10. #40
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    I have comments to add to this, but since this is seeming more like a debate as opposed to a discussion, I'll try to be pithy.

    values precede gender precedes personality, whereas you deal with the personality more where values seem to count in terms of making the connection durable/sustainable at best with virtually zero effort .

    I can quote rl examples for this but I think plenty of NT females have already stated enough, though I'll say that if the NT-NT connection is loaded exponentially, in favor of being great, due to intelligence levels, gender can have a minimum level of influence in most ways.. ergo the most attractive NT female can seem most female & feminine last but not male/masculine anytime and the overall richness of the connection between two NTs of different genders out does the richness of the connection between two same gender NTs.. and that from my perspective is because the other NT is female & balanced & richer, and not cause they're male/masculine because they aren't like the vast majority of females.

    Also, it seems to me that it is more likely that high S ST females have a greater propensity for being more 'masculine'.
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