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  1. #1
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Default NTP relationships

    Yesterday I read something on INTPc that made me sick.

    "Do you ever get bored with them? My friend made a good point when he said once you have analyzed someone enough, there isn't much new to be offered there. I think he is also an INTP and would rather talk to strangers for the sake of fresh perspective then people he already knows. I can't help but agree. What do you think?"

    This indignation by an anonymous INFP could not be any more pertinent.

    "INTP and ENTP are my least favorite types -- I don't even like to be in the same room with these people. They seem to enjoy constant conflict. I've had several as close friends for a time, but when my intellectual appeal wore off they got nasty. From my experience, they are amoral, sadistic, colorless in personality with no concept of empathy. They seem like poorly designed simulacra of a human, inverted into constant self-worship. Their single-minded goal of 'appearing right' seems impossibly empty to me, not to mention dull and draining."

    Its almost like the NTPs depicted above see no distinction between ideas scrutinized to their impersonal end and individuals. Or they see people as no more than entities to manipulate around in their system.

    I am afraid I cannot respect such an approach.


    Have you had similar experiences with such NTPs?

    Introverted Judgment, if had not found a higher purpose will be radically ego-centric. If the NTP does not discover an internal higher purpose to commit to. He will turn inwards anyways, as Introverted Judgment cannot go anywhere else, thus there will be nothing to find but his own ego. Thus, self-apotheosis is nearly an inevitable consequence of a malfunctioning Introverted Judgment.



    So, this, it seems to me, is what that INFP was getting at here...



    "They seem like poorly designed simulacra of a human, inverted into constant self-worship. "

    I think healthy NTPs will not have their ethic orient around their ego and will very much be willing to commit to principles bigger than themselves.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #2
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I knew an ENTP who was kind of like that.

    I personally think most of that description is completely wrong about me, though. One could argue that I certainly have pre-occupied myself with aims, though.
    I can't imagine being unempathetic or disinterested in things outside of myself. This may be bolstered by my Enneagram type of 1/2.

    No offense, but I think such NTPs as described there are a lot more likely to be type 5(still unhealthy, of course).
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #3
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    It's true that I do get kinda bored with people if they're... well, boring. But I don't see that as any different from anyone else. Nobody of any type voluntarily devotes long hours by choice to people they don't feel any connection with, and nobody likes feeling on the Give side of a one-way street.

    I mean, this INFJ woman I've known for years has basically used me as a source of ideas, adventure, distractions and whatever since she knew me, and never, as far as I can remember, offered anything back. I understand that her interests aren't as obscure or whatever as mine, but that itself doesn't bother me - I can be interested in pretty much anything, and I'd have loved to listen to her telling me about her life, sharing her thoughts and ideas etc, but she never did. I used to have to sit there and coax anything out of her like getting blood out of a stone; it seemed all she wanted to do was, as I say, use me as a distraction ("Oh you're so fascinating, there's always something new with you, something to explore, you've always got something to talk about to make me think!").

    I would regularly contact her to ask how she was, but she just ignored my enquiries and asked me what I was doing. She'd get annoyed if I didn't contact her at least twice a week, but it seemed all there was for me to say was an empty 'how are you?' which I knew wouldn't be answered, and then provide her with more distraction material.

    But y'know, because I'm not completely vain and shallow, and don't just want to talk about myself all the time, there's only so long I can be interested in a person who just sits there doe-eyed in amazement... I want some substance back. So I found her boring. And that makes me a bad person, apparently. I still made the effort to keep in touch, but I felt little motivation to do it as often as she wanted me to, so she was constantly paranoid that I was going to cut her dead, despite my sincere reassurances. Then she ended up cutting me dead ("let's part while we're still on good terms" she said), because IHO, it was unbearable to have to go for two weeks without an e-mail at a freakishly busy time of my life. So sorry dear, I'm busy burying my father, sorry I haven't had time to write your Fascinating Facts journal...

    And if I were so obsessed with 'appearing right' then I doubt I'd get called eccentric as often as I do - or that it'd concern me as little as it does.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  4. #4
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    That's interesting... that's how I assumed INTP's were, usually. In fact, when trying to learn about something from one (a long time ago), I tried not to convey too much emotion (fearing it would irritate them), and (semi-accidentally) gave a response that actually elicited an explanation of how they actually felt. What I said was:

    "So, you are really interested in studying extraverts? I couldn't stand them for that long, so tell me what you find out about them."

    Presuming that giving tacit approval of their likely natural tendency to use people as test subjects would make them less uncomfortable talking to me about what they had found out, because I was very interested in how a particular type did things, and thought that such a person was the only one who might know how to predict something like that.

    What's interesting is that the INTP in question said that the person wasn't their lab rat, and that they actually wanted meaningful friendship... I was really impressed, and began to think better of this individual.

  5. #5
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    That INFP either did not really get to know those NTPs or happened to get hold of some bad ones.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #6
    Member Hypomanic's Avatar
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    Here is one possible case scenario:

    The NF is more feelings oriented.
    The NT is more intellectual oriented.
    The NF mistakes the NT's intellectual debates as a cold expression of their true feelings, when in fact, the NT is only speaking theory.

    " Verbally as well as cerebrally quick, ENTPs enjoy arguing: for its own sake, and to show off their impressive verbal skills. They often have a perverse sense of humour, and play devil's advocate regardless of consequence. They sometimes confuse, even hurt, those who cannot understand the concept of argument as a sport." -- ENTP.ORG

  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    As somewhat of a tangent:

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Presuming that giving tacit approval of their likely natural tendency to use people as test subjects would make them less uncomfortable talking to me about what they had found out, because I was very interested in how a particular type did things, and thought that such a person was the only one who might know how to predict something like that.
    At least with INTPs, remember that the best ones seem to make themselves the ultimate lab rat, even if they seem to sometimes treat others the same way. (Usually the desire to not dominate or intrude means they are reduced to putting THEMSELVES through the experiments, rather than someone else... at least, if it is intellectually feasible for the purposes of the experiment.)

    As a crass and rather humorous example, Newton (regardless of his actual type) almost blinded himself experimenting with optics. An evil ExTx might have experimented on others; the INTP usually tries to just involve herself, if there is any long-term risk.

    I admit to trying to figure out how the world works by watching people intensely, but it's not that I see them as "constructs" but simply that I have no other way to figure things out. So I am simultaneously aware of "Bob and Ted and Susie and Heather" as my friends and people as authentic of me, and I also aware of them as a collection of traits and desires and motivations and whatever else, bouncing through some sort of system (social, physical, etc.), able to be observed. It is both at once.

    I also try not to push on people too much, if at all. I want to see what they do all on their own; manipulation seems to invalidate truth. I want to understand them, because I respect and care about them and truth.

    To sum it up, "we're all lab rats in this cage."

    OP: What ideal as an INTP do you adhere to that makes things different for you, in your opinion?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I've known more NTP narcissists than I can shake a stick at. And further, I've had friends of other types admit the same NTP nastiness to them that the INFP spoke of (including my own ENFP sister who's just as smart or more so than the dismissive little anklebiter who turned on her).

    Then again, that "bored" hostage-taking NTP behavior is so off balance and deserving of a kick to the head that I've seen other NTPs stand clear of it or offer to shake the offender until their teeth rattled.

    [This isn't a sweeping condemnation of NTPs, nor is it an invitation to turn this thread into a NFJ-NTP bash-fest. Just responding to the OP.]
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  9. #9
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Hmm. I guess I think of society as a giant behavioral psychology experiment in a lot of ways. We are always giving each other positive and negative reinforcement. Unless manipulation is done pretty consciously it can be hard to tell exactly who is conditioning whom. To me, it's the dense people who keep doing things that don't work. I don't have the energy to be forever banging my head on the wall so I allow myself to be easily conditioned.

    Is that anything like what you're talking about Jennifer?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #10
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I think a certain level of narcissism is inevitable in a type that, by definition, spends most of their life being criticized and told they're bad/wrong/naughty/selfish/eccentric/antisocial/whatever... when all they're doing is just being themselves, thinking about things in a detached way that tends to elicit many an ear-clippable gaffe.

    It's probably a combination of both trying to figure out what's so damned bad about yourself that people keep saying these things (and then getting stuck in self-analysis mode), as well as trying to find the good in yourself in order just to cope. And then, when you find it, wanting others to see it too, perhaps more so than other types because you're so used to them not seeing it.

    I know an INTP who says that he has to big himself up all the time because nobody else will. He also says that he talks about himself because he hopes by explaining himself, he won't be so misunderstood. I sympathize with that... I talk about myself far more on these forums than in RL - in RL I've learned not to focus on myself but on other people as much as possible and it comes naturally now, and also to have more confidence in people to figure out for themselves and see good in you if it's there.

    But obviously here, people can't just see the way I live and how I interact with people, and of course the nature of the board is that there are a lot of questions asked for people to answer about themselves. So it's different.

    I don't see people as lab rats at all, but I relate to Jennifer's idea of seeing myself as one - for other people.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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