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  1. #11
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I think a certain level of narcissism is inevitable in a type that, by definition, spends most of their life being criticized and told they're bad/wrong/naughty/selfish/eccentric/antisocial/whatever... when all they're doing is just being themselves, thinking about things in a detached way that tends to elicit many an ear-clippable gaffe.
    I found it interesting that one behavior system (I wish I could remember it) said that certain types were more prone to Narcissism by nature. I think mine was something along the lines of "massive oceanic blood-letting." Sanguinery prospect. Ick.


    It's probably a combination of both trying to figure out what's so damned bad about yourself that people keep saying these things (and then getting stuck in self-analysis mode), as well as trying to find the good in yourself in order just to cope. And then, when you find it, wanting others to see it too, perhaps more so than other types because you're so used to them not seeing it.

    I know an INTP who says that he has to big himself up all the time because nobody else will. He also says that he talks about himself because he hopes by explaining himself, he won't be so misunderstood. I sympathize with that... I talk about myself far more on these forums than in RL - in RL I've learned not to focus on myself but on other people as much as possible and it comes naturally now, and also to have more confidence in people to figure out for themselves and see good in you if it's there.

    But obviously here, people can't just see the way I live and how I interact with people, and of course the nature of the board is that there are a lot of questions asked for people to answer about themselves. So it's different.

    I don't see people as lab rats at all, but I relate to Jennifer's idea of seeing myself as one - for other people.
    Very well put and insightful, dear Sub.
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  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    [This isn't a sweeping condemnation of NTPs, nor is it an invitation to turn this thread into a NFJ-NTP bash-fest. Just responding to the OP.]
    Good. Because you're getting my hackles up, to be honest, with the strong unqualified commentary about NTPs that seems to assume your NFJ mindset is the best view out there.

    (Many other NFJs on this board seem very capable of discussing NTPs without the strong inherent negativity or leaving me feeling agitated.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    I admit to trying to figure out how the world works by watching people intensely, but it's not that I see them as "constructs" but simply that I have no other way to figure things out. So I am simultaneously aware of "Bob and Ted and Susie and Heather" as my friends and people as authentic of me, and I also aware of them as a collection of traits and desires and motivations and whatever else, bouncing through some sort of system (social, physical, etc.), able to be observed. It is both at once.

    I also try not to push on people too much, if at all. I want to see what they do all on their own; manipulation seems to invalidate truth. I want to understand them, because I respect and care about them and truth.

    To sum it up, "we're all lab rats in this cage."
    What's interesting is that unlike the INFP, that wouldn't have bothered me so much. Personally, I wouldn't really want to be someone's friend and interact with/observe them for the sole purpose of analysis, but I don't have a problem with a person who would do such a thing. In fact, sometimes I have such a macabre interest in predicting other people's behavior that I would seek to learn of some of such a person's observations, especially if I were anxious about what a particular person might do next... although I wouldn't be willing to do that to someone myself. What does that mean?

  4. #14
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Good. Because you're getting my hackles up, to be honest, with the strong unqualified commentary about NTPs that seems to assume your NFJ mindset is the best view out there.
    No, Jennifer. NO. And I won't be baited into assuaging your feelings on this matter. I've said nothing more or less reactionary to the OP than others. I've said how I've felt. I've heard worse about NFs when I first arrived, so please refrain from talking down to me about my tone. I've been attempting to make my self clear all along.

    (Many other NFJs on this board seem very capable of discussing NTPs without the strong inherent negativity or leaving me feeling agitated.)
    If that's all you get from every one of my 9 million posts here, that's just too damn bad. You don't have to like me. It's no skin off my teeth. You will NOT hang your agitation on me.
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  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I think a certain level of narcissism is inevitable in a type that, by definition, spends most of their life being criticized and told they're bad/wrong/naughty/selfish/eccentric/antisocial/whatever... when all they're doing is just being themselves, thinking about things in a detached way that tends to elicit many an ear-clippable gaffe.
    That sounds right. It's not all inborn hubris -- it usually develops partly as a reaction to feeling criticized and smooshed by the external world.

    And when people feel constantly pressured or criticized just because of who they are, they tend to either withdraw completely, ingratiate themselves, or push back with whatever tools are at their disposal.

    It's probably a combination of both trying to figure out what's so damned bad about yourself that people keep saying these things (and then getting stuck in self-analysis mode), as well as trying to find the good in yourself in order just to cope. And then, when you find it, wanting others to see it too, perhaps more so than other types because you're so used to them not seeing it.
    Yes, partly it's a way to justify your own existence.

    in RL I've learned not to focus on myself but on other people as much as possible and it comes naturally now, and also to have more confidence in people to figure out for themselves and see good in you if it's there.
    It does take time to work through it. I still sense some narcissism in me that I want to get rid of, but it's just where I'm at. The more comfortable I get with myself and the less I feel I need to justify my existence, the easier it becomes to focus on others in an authentic way.

    Anyway, not an excuse for some NT behavior (getting back to the OP). Sometimes we can definitely be jerks.

    I don't see people as lab rats at all...
    I was being a little flippant, I know.

    Really, though, one of my life missions is to 'experiment on myself' and so explore things, so that others can benefit from the information. Like Jodie Foster in "Contact," you know.

    That perhaps is my guiding ideal. And so part of the ideal is that I am valuing others enough that I want them to know what I know.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I do observe sometimes other ENTP's doing something I'm prone to myself, which is to sorta get too involved in something and start spinning out of control, lashing out and doing everything they can think of to avert a crisis, not realizing that they're just making it worse and what they need to do is just stop, chill out and STFU.

    When I do it, I'm very grateful when someone points it out, y'know, puts a hand on my shoulder and says "Sub, just breathe, ok? Count to ten... the sky is not going to fall down if you just stand aside and leave the levers alone..." so I try to do it for other ENTP's when I see them in that process.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #17
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Have you had similar experiences with such NTPs?
    Yes, definitely one; possibly two, my uncertainty based on an indeterminate typing of the second individual. Similar behavior, however, may be possible with all IxxPs: the concrete pair will drift as soon as the dynamics and variety of physical experiences narrow, while the abstract pair will leave when their respective analyses are complete.

    These are inclinations, of course. I would first implicate the individuals themselves.

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    This indignation by an anonymous INFP could not be any more pertinent.

    "INTP and ENTP are my least favorite types -- I don't even like to be in the same room with these people. They seem to enjoy constant conflict. I've had several as close friends for a time, but when my intellectual appeal wore off they got nasty. From my experience, they are amoral, sadistic, colorless in personality with no concept of empathy. They seem like poorly designed simulacra of a human, inverted into constant self-worship. Their single-minded goal of 'appearing right' seems impossibly empty to me, not to mention dull and draining."
    It sounds like the INFP encountered some rather unsavory people. IMO it is a significant mistake to project that onto NTPs in general. It is really unfortunate this INFP has had to encounter such disappointing experiences, although using NTP designation as a way to predict a subcategory of individuals who might repeat the behavior will probably not be a reliable predictor. The INFP will encounter more unsavory characters in life and there's a good chance it will be unexpected and different types.

    I have found NTPs to have empathy. It tends to be from a different vantage point than my own and this is why I especially value their input. My experience is quite opposite to the descriptions there. In fact nearly all of my closest online friends, the ones I trust with my vulnerability, are NTPs (both ENTP and INTP). The ones I know generally require a lot of personal space, but I also require some and am accustomed to low pressure communication styles.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It sounds like the INFP encountered some rather unsavory people. IMO it is a significant mistake to project that onto NTPs in general.
    Yes, it's understandable - I used to carry similarly awful prejudices against ExFJ's because I spent most of my life on the receiving end of three particularly unhealthy examples. Maybe the INFP BW was talking about in the OP will meet some nice NTP's one day and change their mind, like I changed mine
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  10. #20
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yes, it's understandable - I used to carry similarly awful prejudices against ExFJ's because I spent most of my life on the receiving end of three particularly unhealthy examples. Maybe the INFP BW was talking about in the OP will meet some nice NTP's one day and change their mind, like I changed mine
    I've valued every minute of knowing you. It's been my honor.
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