[NT] people idiots or a bad enviroment

[white]

While me, in my ivory tower with my PhD, will sniff at them wrapped in my threadbare blankie, eating a day-old Christmas cookie?

If there are easier ways to survive, would you call someone dumb if they chose to take it? Or more intelligence that they recognise their limitations and go for what works?

Life's easier the lower you keep everyone's expectations no?

 

[substitute]

Oh hey, I'm no ivory tower dude, and am also not short of a few bob these days - the days of frozen hovels are LONG over for me!! I wasn't poor out of principle, just having useless parents - as soon as I was in command of my own destiny I set about improving my living standards by means of education AND old-boys networks/connections.

Nah, they really are idiots, believe me. Lovable idiots. They're not choosing an easier path out of pragmatic choice, they're just incapable of sorting their own shit out. They've tried and failed numerous times, but have never quite been able to understand that rent is to be prioritized over port.

I'm the last one to complain about privileged people. I've experienced my share of both. I'm just saying that, having lived my life with a boot in both camps, I can see that idiocy and genius seems to be pretty evenly spread through the classes.

 

[INTJMom]

I chose nature because I think that's the biggest contributor, though the others play a part as well.

 

[white]

Oh hey, I'm no ivory tower dude, and am also not short of a few bob these days - the days of frozen hovels are LONG over for me!!

I know. Was just having a lark. You know how ENTPs drama-mama everything. Am glad those days are over for you.

Nah, they really are idiots, believe me. Lovable idiots. They're not choosing an easier path out of pragmatic choice, they're just incapable of sorting their own shit out. They've tried and failed numerous times, but have never quite been able to understand that rent is to be prioritized over port.

Well, life is too short for bad wines. *nods sagely* And if you have a lot of it, it'd shorten your life, right. So the trick is to find the point when your life expires from a surfeit of port before the rent kills you.

I'm the last one to complain about privileged people. I've experienced my share of both. I'm just saying that, having lived my life with a boot in both camps, I can see that idiocy and genius seems to be pretty evenly spread through the classes.

Yaps. (ENTPs get back on the thread!) That's why my earlier point that genetics is merely the possibility and environment does a lot. Where natural talent does not exist, hard work can do much to cover for it. I believe most things in life can be learnt. As long as one is willing.

Intelligence can become a millstone to growth if we shut ourselves up in the ivory tower of superiority and maintain a tunnel vision. The same way complacency over our own stupidity can kill.

 

[substitute]

Yaps. (ENTPs get back on the thread!) That's why my earlier point that genetics is merely the possibility and environment does a lot. Where natural talent does not exist, hard work can do much to cover for it. I believe most things in life can be learnt. As long as one is willing.

Intelligence can become a millstone to growth if we shut ourselves up in the ivory tower of superiority and maintain a tunnel vision. The same way complacency over our own stupidity can kill.

Hm, but by the same token, one must recognize one's limitations and it's better to stick to what you're naturally good at, if you can make a living out of it (and you can make a living out of almost anything, believe me, I know!). I've known people who've worked really hard at things and achieved a level of competency, but they still get easily pwned by someone with a natural gift for it who's barely done any work, and it can be very frustrating for them. And without that natural inclination you'll never reach the highest levels, because at that point both hard work and natural talent are required, but you won't have the motivation or dedication to put in that much hard work if you haven't got the passion.

Even with the passion though... I mean I know this guy called Stef and he's a real fan of the guitar. He's been learning for about eight years and really works hard at it. He practices every day and he's taken lessons and everything... but my sister got better than him within about six weeks of first picking up a guitar... so you can't say that people don't have natural aptitudes for certain things. I would propose that Stef was wasting his time dedicating all that effort to something he'll never be even half-decent at, when he could instead have been reaching high levels of something he is naturally good at. But if he enjoyed it anyway then it wasn't a waste of time, as long as enjoying it was his only objective. I happen to know it isn't though... he does harbour delusions of being a rock star one day...

 

[white]

Hm, but by the same token, one must recognize one's limitations and it's better to stick to what you're naturally good at, if you can make a living out of it (and you can make a living out of almost anything, believe me, I know!). I've known people who've worked really hard at things and achieved a level of competency, but they still get easily pwned by someone with a natural gift for it who's barely done any work, and it can be very frustrating for them. And without that natural inclination you'll never reach the highest levels, because at that point both hard work and natural talent are required, but you won't have the motivation or dedication to put in that much hard work if you haven't got the passion.

Even with the passion though... I mean I know this guy called Stef and he's a real fan of the guitar. He's been learning for about eight years and really works hard at it. He practices every day and he's taken lessons and everything... but my sister got better than him within about six weeks of first picking up a guitar... so you can't say that people don't have natural aptitudes for certain things. I would propose that Stef was wasting his time dedicating all that effort to something he'll never be even half-decent at, when he could instead have been reaching high levels of something he is naturally good at. But if he enjoyed it anyway then it wasn't a waste of time, as long as enjoying it was his only objective. I happen to know it isn't though... he does harbour delusions of being a rock star one day...

Yups, I never said natural aptitude doesn't count. I'd said genetics was the possibility. Environment the realisor of it. That's why my point of natural talent being the possibility otherwise it is hard work. Of course if you have both, then you've realised the gift you were born with.

But by the same token, someone with the possibility but too lazy to do anything about it will not go far too. Genius will not count for much if you do not work on it too?

And hmm. If you're not good at something and you keep trying, it is a little. Umm. Steadfast.

 

[substitute]

Yups, I never said natural aptitude doesn't count. I'd said genetics was the possibility. Environment the realisor of it. That's why my point of natural talent being the possibility otherwise it is hard work. Of course if you have both, then you've realised the gift you were born with.

But by the same token, someone with the possibility but too lazy to do anything about it will not go far too. Genius will not count for much if you do not work on it too?

Yeah... like my brother... a genuine genius, but couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag, and can't seem to hold a job down for more than a month. In his late 30's now and still the eternal student. He has the potential to go so far, but zero ambition. It wasn't so much ambition that made me get my shit together, it was more just rising to a challenge for me - to see if it could be done. I was as surprised as anyone else, when I pulled it off. And I've only kept going because of the need to support the kids. It's not always laziness, but lack of ambition - and that lack of ambition may actually be what's behind the apparent laziness. In fact my brother isn't lazy now that I think about it - he's almost always busy and does an awful lot. He just does what he wants to and puts his effort into the things that are important to him, and can't bring himself to compromise on his time usage in order to make a living.

But environment isn't always the realisor of aptitude either. As in my case, my environment couldn't have been more hostile. For me it was a combination of determination and sheer dumb luck. I have siblings who have not seen our environment as a thing to rise above/out of, and other cousins who have not seen their favourable one as a reason to not bother on their own behalf like R&R (as we call them, since that's what their lives generally consist of!).

But for many people that's what it is - a combination of natural aptitude and intelligence, together with the drive and will to succeed that can overcome any other environmental setback - to me these things are what separate the men from the boys, as it were. Anyone can succeed given half a brain and some supportive parents with a big college fund. It's whether they can keep on succeeding afterwards - can they meet the challenges of real life after college? Can they cope, or do they cry to daddy whenever anything goes wrong?

You could say that crying to daddy is a pragmatic choice, a skill or a way of solving a problem. And I'd say that was valid, as long as they could prove they can still cope when daddy says no.