[Ne] Einstein and Extraverted Intuition

[Totenkindly]

Yes. If my new wife is cooking, I won't be picky until I try all the foods she can cook. Let say after a year or something, I will become picky. I would probably try happily any new changes she makes to her cooking, but if she sticks to her same style, I think I will be picky and ask her to make those foods I like.

Exactly. You weren't arbitrarily picky, you actually honed in your preference and now settled on the "best" -- and why would you want less than that? I want to say ENTPs can become connoisseurs (sp?) easily enough -- they sample and hone.

INTPs can do that too, if they allow themselves to sample enough, but they tend to exclude items too early in the process sometimes.

Same goes for sex.;-)

Except, usually, with a much longer sampling period.

 

[Maha Raj]

Except, usually, with a much longer sampling period.

True True

 

[Hypomanic]

Well.. as an ENTP with a very close INTP sister (in a monetarily secure) household I have a few things to add. Yes, I think that ENTP's born poor would spend much of their lives with others trying to fill that gap, and not quite developing their introverted functions. As someone who was not poor growing up I'm more introverted than most people give me credit for. I agree, anything to excess is excess.. ENTP's do like security, I in fact like school and schedules because I'm at my very best when in sync with them. We're also drained by being around people too much, and are energized by our own ideas (like introverts... I'm happy when alone). I also have ADHD and had a very rebellious time as a young teen.. possibly Ne caused (they thought I was bipolar even, but nooo). Also, Einstein's son had paranoid schizophrenia. Mental illness, creativity, and artistic ability usually all typically run in iNTellectual families. My closest family consists of 3 NT's (ENTJ--mom, INTP-sister, and ENTP--me) so I have to admit we've had all of these things as well. Oh that and my dad was an ISFP... your typical 'starving artist' type.

 

[ygolo]

Well, except for his idea of nailing C to the frame of reference. That was a totally new-and-different idea, really a serious intuitive leap. That sort of thing isn't generally typical of INTPs.

That idea wasn't just thinking outside the box--it redefined the box.

I beg to differ. The particular idea you are speaking of would be better credited to Hendrik Lorentz

What Einstein did was move the idea to a more central stage (and that decision could have been prompted by his reading of Mach). If you read Mach's Science and Mechanics, and combine that with the knowledge of the Lorentz transformations, his theories seem like natural (dare I say "logical") conclusions. That naturalness (elegance) is, IMO, a big part of the reason scientists consider him a genius.

In fact, a lot of the "radical" ideas that are credited to Einstein could be more appropriately given to other scientists (Poincare , Mach, Lorentz, etc.).
What Einstein was really good at was creating masterful combinations of these ideas to particular ends. It's not just relativity, but his photons, and his work on Brownian motion (I use this more that any other), were all excellent examples of his ability to find really elegant explanations based on already existing ideas (all it took was thought and "combinatory play").

 

[Maha Raj]

I beg to differ. The particular idea you are speaking of would be better credited to Hendrik Lorentz

What Einstein did was move the idea to a more central stage (and that decision could have been prompted by his reading of Mach). If you read Mach's Science and Mechanics, and combine that with the knowledge of the Lorentz transformations, his theories seem like natural (dare I say "logical") conclusions. That naturalness (elegance) is, IMO, a big part of the reason scientists consider him a genius.

In fact, a lot of the "radical" ideas that are credited to Einstein could be more appropriately given to other scientists (Poincare , Mach, Lorentz, etc.).
What Einstein was really good at was creating masterful combinations of these ideas to particular ends. It's not just relativity, but his photons, and his work on Brownian motion (I use this more that any other), were all excellent examples of his ability to find really elegant explanations based on already existing ideas (all it took was thought and "combinatory play").

If you start to criticize inventors for borrowing ideas from others, you will have to go all the way back to Greeks or Egyptians. May be you will end up with the Supreme God who created the earth. Creating masterful combinations of ideas is an act of invention.

If I ask you how to make an electric bulb, you will go and learn how to make it. Once you know the way to combine things to make a bulb, don’t think that it is an easy job and Thomas Edison took credit for creating such an easy thing.

Before Thomas Edison, people lived in darkness. He did something that gave them light at night. No matter what he did, whom he took the idea from; it’s him who made it happen. We respect him for his work. Just like respecting our mom and dad for providing us with food when we were young. Even though they didn’t farm and make those foods, they cooked them and fed us; so we respect them for that.

 

[MerkW]

If I ask you how to make an electric bulb, you will go and learn how to make it. Once you know the way to combine things to make a pulp, don’t think that it is an easy job and Thomas Edison took credit for creating such an easy thing.

Before Thomas Edison, people lived in darkness. He did something that gave them light at night. No matter what he did, whom he took the idea from; it’s him who made it happen. We respect him for his work. Just like respecting our mom and dad for providing us with food when we were young. Even though they didn’t farm and make those foods, they cooked them and fed us; so we respect them for that.

Personally, I think that Nikola Tesla is a far more impressive individual than Edison. As I have said, take a look at the War of the Currents. Without Tesla we would be living in darkness, not Edison. Do you realize how insufficient DC and incandescent light-bulbs are?

 

[Maha Raj]

Personally, I think that Nikola Tesla is a far more impressive individual than Edison. As I have said, take a look at the War of the Currents. Without Tesla we would be living in darkness, not Edison. Do you realize how insufficient DC and incandescent light-bulbs are?

Inventors do have arrogant-ness and sometimes defend their inventions than making minor changes.

Thomas Edison might have been arrogant in that sense, about DC. May be we needed Nikola Tesla to further develop a working light bulb. I do not know much about Nikola Tesla, so I simply agree to you saying he could have been impressive individual than Edison.

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My view might look like saying that Bill Gates is the inventor of Operation System. But no It’s not like I am saying BG is the inventor, what I am saying is he is the one who made it possible for most people in the world to use it. Its like social service. Even though he gained profit from it, his vision to put Windows in every one of the house in the world, seems like a social service. More like a vision of a leader of an empire. Wouldn't you agree that Mircosoft's window popularized the use of computer in the world than any of his competitors? The profits BG and MS gained reflect how successful they are in reaching their goal.

Let's say after 200 years from now, if you ask people who is the inventor of the OS, I beleive they are most likely to say Bill Gates or Microsoft. Its not completly wrong. Because if it not BG or MS not everyone will be using it, only those who called themselves "INTELECTUAL" and "RICH". Look at Apple even though they have a better and innovative OS compared to MS Windows, they didn't make it reach the vast majority of people. Apple will be remembered as "Ipod" inventor or MP3 player inventor, thats all.


INTP and ENTP are both idea people, and we both have some skills to invent new things. But ENTPs do not stop when the invention is complete. For us, an invention is not complete until it reach to all the people who needed them. That is why ENTPs are not only Inventors, there are also leaders. We focus on inventing things that benefit PEOPLE; therefore we borrow the ideas and invent new things according to PEOPLE’s need.

Clearly, INTP are against ENTPs when it comes to inventions and popularity.

So I might be wrong in saying Thomas Edison is the inventor but to me it seems like he is the one who designed a workable light bulb and commercialized it.

"Many people refer to Edison's work as the first incandescent light bulb with high resistance, a small radiating area, and a commercially and uninhibitally but still useful lifetime. In other words his application for patent was the first design suitable for use by energy companies with central generating stations." - Wikipedia

 

[Totenkindly]

It just depends on what standard you are using to say which is "more impressive."

I agree that INTP types usually end up not bothering to market and advertise their achievements; ENTPs have that much going for them, at least, where they do push their ideas and work to externalize them for the benefit of others.

In the end, Tesla might have been more ingenious/profound in his thinking, but Edison won because he played the game to get his ideas out.

(tangent: David Bowie was SO cool as Tesla in "The Prestige!")

 

[ygolo]

If you start to criticize inventors for borrowing ideas from others, you will have to go all the way back to Greeks or Egyptians. May be you will end up with the Supreme God who created the earth. Creating masterful combinations of ideas is an act of invention.

If I ask you how to make an electric bulb, you will go and learn how to make it. Once you know the way to combine things to make a pulp, don’t think that it is an easy job and Thomas Edison took credit for creating such an easy thing.

Before Thomas Edison, people lived in darkness. He did something that gave them light at night. No matter what he did, whom he took the idea from; it’s him who made it happen. We respect him for his work. Just like respecting our mom and dad for providing us with food when we were young. Even though they didn’t farm and make those foods, they cooked them and fed us; so we respect them for that.

I wasn't critisising Einstein, nor was I trying to trivialize his contributions. I was trying to point out that his means of contribution was indeed typical of an INTP. "Combinatory play" describes what I (and I believe other INTPs) do habitually.

ENTPs may be more apt to try thinking up radical "new" ideas to create explanations, but INTPs, IMO, are better at fusing a "unified" theory from others (and that is what Einstein did). I am certainly not discrediting Einstein's contributions. Good unifications look amazingly logical/natural after the fact, but nearly impossible to come up with before. That's the trick Einstein pulled off on a regular basis.

Edison was a trial-and-error fellow--this is a different style. He would physically try different things to see how they worked. The elements that he chose (even knowing what he used as prior knowledge) don't seem all that logical, they just happened to be what worked.

Tesla would run experiments in his head (or so he claimed). How the mind "simulates" things is quite different from how a computer would (and can often be faster, but almost as accurate). This is closer to what Einstein did. But unifications are a slightly different thing, there is a lot more "logic" to it.

There is a strange way an idea calls out to be utilized, just so. Utilizing many ideas in this manner can lead to amazingly elegant unifications. That is the attraction (and trap) of String Theory.

 

[Maha Raj]

ENTPs may be more apt to try thinking up radical "new" ideas to create explanations, but INTPs, IMO, are better at fusing a "unified" theory from others (and that is what Einstein did). I am certainly not discrediting Einstein's contributions. Good unifications look amazingly logical/natural after the fact, but nearly impossible to come up with before. That's the trick Einstein pulled off on a regular basis.

Edison was a trial-and-error fellow--this is a different style. He would physically try different things to see how they worked. The elements that he chose (even knowing what he used as prior knowledge) don't seem all that logical, they just happened to be what worked.

I am satisfied with your post saying that Einstein could be an ENTP. I always doubted he is an ENTP but most people say that he is INTP because he is somewhat antisocial or isolated. It’s wrong because we ENTPs could be antisocial and isolated for longtime if we don’t see our views to be welcomed by others.

However, we are most likely try hard to prove them that they are wrong; INTPs simply bail out but stick to their views. That’s why we can say INTPs are scientist and ENTPs are entrepreneurs or inventors.

Every ENTPs are different. Because of our high use of Ne even if two ENTPs live together for all their life, they may have two different views or understanding of things.

So its easy to see even though there is a huge gap in similarities between Edison and Einstein, they both could possibly ENTPs.

 

[MerkW]

However, we are most likely try hard to prove them that they are wrong; INTPs simply bail out but stick to their views. That’s why we can say INTPs are scientist and ENTPs are entrepreneurs or inventors.

Every ENTPs are different. Because of our high use of Ne even if two ENTPs live together for all their life, they may have two different views or understanding of things.

So its easy to see even though there is a huge gap in similarities between Edison and Einstein, they both could possibly ENTPs.

Both Edison and Einstein could possibly be ENTPs, but I don't think that it is likely for either one.

First of all, Edison, I think, almost quite probably ESTJ, with ESTP and ENTJ as second most likely possibilities.

Also, you mentioned that an if Einstein were an ENTP it is possible that his isolation could be due to people not accepting his ideas. But, as a child and teenager, Einstein was very introverted. He did not become gradually isolated over time, like some, such as Howard Hughes or Nikola Tesla. Instead, Einstein was a rather isolated person to begin with.

 

[Hypomanic]

I was introverted in my childhood.. up until age 11 due to external circumstances.

At any rate Alexander The Great was an ENTP.. so if we loose Edison so what?
I think Einstein was INTP due to the fact that he seemed to use Ti then Ne.

 

[Maha Raj]

me too was introverted in childhood...but i am an ENTP no doubt about that...
I use Ne and Ti almost all the time...sometimes it seems like i use Ti most of the time... I use Fe as well, it is the only function that make me want to socialize with people, but when i am with people or outside Ne will most of the time take over everything...

Ne Ti functions are the only two that make me feel doubt about my personality type. Sometimes i wonder if i possibly be a INTP. Becase of my switching use of Ne and Ti functions...

ESTJs are like villians for us ENTPs...you see this in peter pan stories, where Peter Pan looks more like an ENTP and Mr.Hooks like an ESTJs.

Our childhood isolation has reason. We tend be more like an adult in thinking so we become isolated. In our adult life where our ideas are more welcomed with our "continues fight to prove them right", we become less isolated.

 

[Maha Raj]

Human reason, in one sphere (section) of its cognition, is called upon to consider questions, which it cannot decline as they are presented by its own nature (the physical nature or environment human live in), but which it cannot answer, as they transcend every faculty of the mind.

It (human reason) falls into this difficulty without any fault of its own. It begins with principles, which cannot be dispensed (distributed) with in the field of experience, and the truth and sufficiency of which are, at the same time, insured (protected toward the future) by experience. With these principles it rises, in obedience to the laws of its own nature, to ever higher and more remote conditions. But it quickly discovers that, in this way, its labours must remain ever incomplete, because new questions never cease to present themselves; and thus it finds itself compelled to have recourse to principles which transcend the region of experience, while they are regarded by common sense without distrust. It thus falls into confusion and contradictions, from which it conjectures (conjecture is a mathematical statement which appears likely to be true, but has not been formally proven to be true under the rules of mathematical logic.) the presence of latent errors, which, however, it is unable to discover, because the principles it employs, transcending the limits of experience, cannot be tested by that criterion. The arena of these endless contests is called Metaphysic.


So the metaphysic is Extraverted Intution?

 

[Silly_Siren]

Einstein wasn't talking about extraverted intuition when he said that, that's just a quote taken out of context the article uses to sum up Ne. But maybe I am missing the point here.