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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maha Raj View Post
    Yes. If my new wife is cooking, I won't be picky until I try all the foods she can cook. Let say after a year or something, I will become picky. I would probably try happily any new changes she makes to her cooking, but if she sticks to her same style, I think I will be picky and ask her to make those foods I like.
    Exactly. You weren't arbitrarily picky, you actually honed in your preference and now settled on the "best" -- and why would you want less than that? I want to say ENTPs can become connoisseurs (sp?) easily enough -- they sample and hone.

    INTPs can do that too, if they allow themselves to sample enough, but they tend to exclude items too early in the process sometimes.

    Same goes for sex.;-)
    Except, usually, with a much longer sampling period.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Member Maha Raj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Except, usually, with a much longer sampling period.
    True True
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  3. #23
    Member Hypomanic's Avatar
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    Well.. as an ENTP with a very close INTP sister (in a monetarily secure) household I have a few things to add. Yes, I think that ENTP's born poor would spend much of their lives with others trying to fill that gap, and not quite developing their introverted functions. As someone who was not poor growing up I'm more introverted than most people give me credit for. I agree, anything to excess is excess.. ENTP's do like security, I in fact like school and schedules because I'm at my very best when in sync with them. We're also drained by being around people too much, and are energized by our own ideas (like introverts... I'm happy when alone). I also have ADHD and had a very rebellious time as a young teen.. possibly Ne caused (they thought I was bipolar even, but nooo). Also, Einstein's son had paranoid schizophrenia. Mental illness, creativity, and artistic ability usually all typically run in iNTellectual families. My closest family consists of 3 NT's (ENTJ--mom, INTP-sister, and ENTP--me) so I have to admit we've had all of these things as well. Oh that and my dad was an ISFP... your typical 'starving artist' type.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, except for his idea of nailing C to the frame of reference. That was a totally new-and-different idea, really a serious intuitive leap. That sort of thing isn't generally typical of INTPs.

    That idea wasn't just thinking outside the box--it redefined the box.
    I beg to differ. The particular idea you are speaking of would be better credited to Hendrik Lorentz

    What Einstein did was move the idea to a more central stage (and that decision could have been prompted by his reading of Mach). If you read Mach's Science and Mechanics, and combine that with the knowledge of the Lorentz transformations, his theories seem like natural (dare I say "logical") conclusions. That naturalness (elegance) is, IMO, a big part of the reason scientists consider him a genius.

    In fact, a lot of the "radical" ideas that are credited to Einstein could be more appropriately given to other scientists (Poincare , Mach, Lorentz, etc.).
    What Einstein was really good at was creating masterful combinations of these ideas to particular ends. It's not just relativity, but his photons, and his work on Brownian motion (I use this more that any other), were all excellent examples of his ability to find really elegant explanations based on already existing ideas (all it took was thought and "combinatory play").

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I beg to differ. The particular idea you are speaking of would be better credited to Hendrik Lorentz

    What Einstein did was move the idea to a more central stage (and that decision could have been prompted by his reading of Mach). If you read Mach's Science and Mechanics, and combine that with the knowledge of the Lorentz transformations, his theories seem like natural (dare I say "logical") conclusions. That naturalness (elegance) is, IMO, a big part of the reason scientists consider him a genius.

    In fact, a lot of the "radical" ideas that are credited to Einstein could be more appropriately given to other scientists (Poincare , Mach, Lorentz, etc.).
    What Einstein was really good at was creating masterful combinations of these ideas to particular ends. It's not just relativity, but his photons, and his work on Brownian motion (I use this more that any other), were all excellent examples of his ability to find really elegant explanations based on already existing ideas (all it took was thought and "combinatory play").


    If you start to criticize inventors for borrowing ideas from others, you will have to go all the way back to Greeks or Egyptians. May be you will end up with the Supreme God who created the earth. Creating masterful combinations of ideas is an act of invention.

    If I ask you how to make an electric bulb, you will go and learn how to make it. Once you know the way to combine things to make a bulb, don’t think that it is an easy job and Thomas Edison took credit for creating such an easy thing.

    Before Thomas Edison, people lived in darkness. He did something that gave them light at night. No matter what he did, whom he took the idea from; it’s him who made it happen. We respect him for his work. Just like respecting our mom and dad for providing us with food when we were young. Even though they didn’t farm and make those foods, they cooked them and fed us; so we respect them for that.
    Last edited by Maha Raj; 12-20-2007 at 12:36 PM.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maha Raj View Post
    If I ask you how to make an electric bulb, you will go and learn how to make it. Once you know the way to combine things to make a pulp, don’t think that it is an easy job and Thomas Edison took credit for creating such an easy thing.

    Before Thomas Edison, people lived in darkness. He did something that gave them light at night. No matter what he did, whom he took the idea from; it’s him who made it happen. We respect him for his work. Just like respecting our mom and dad for providing us with food when we were young. Even though they didn’t farm and make those foods, they cooked them and fed us; so we respect them for that.
    Personally, I think that Nikola Tesla is a far more impressive individual than Edison. As I have said, take a look at the War of the Currents. Without Tesla we would be living in darkness, not Edison. Do you realize how insufficient DC and incandescent light-bulbs are?
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

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  7. #27
    Member Maha Raj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    Personally, I think that Nikola Tesla is a far more impressive individual than Edison. As I have said, take a look at the War of the Currents. Without Tesla we would be living in darkness, not Edison. Do you realize how insufficient DC and incandescent light-bulbs are?
    Inventors do have arrogant-ness and sometimes defend their inventions than making minor changes.

    Thomas Edison might have been arrogant in that sense, about DC. May be we needed Nikola Tesla to further develop a working light bulb. I do not know much about Nikola Tesla, so I simply agree to you saying he could have been impressive individual than Edison.

    --------------

    My view might look like saying that Bill Gates is the inventor of Operation System. But no It’s not like I am saying BG is the inventor, what I am saying is he is the one who made it possible for most people in the world to use it. Its like social service. Even though he gained profit from it, his vision to put Windows in every one of the house in the world, seems like a social service. More like a vision of a leader of an empire. Wouldn't you agree that Mircosoft's window popularized the use of computer in the world than any of his competitors? The profits BG and MS gained reflect how successful they are in reaching their goal.

    Let's say after 200 years from now, if you ask people who is the inventor of the OS, I beleive they are most likely to say Bill Gates or Microsoft. Its not completly wrong. Because if it not BG or MS not everyone will be using it, only those who called themselves "INTELECTUAL" and "RICH". Look at Apple even though they have a better and innovative OS compared to MS Windows, they didn't make it reach the vast majority of people. Apple will be remembered as "Ipod" inventor or MP3 player inventor, thats all.


    INTP and ENTP are both idea people, and we both have some skills to invent new things. But ENTPs do not stop when the invention is complete. For us, an invention is not complete until it reach to all the people who needed them. That is why ENTPs are not only Inventors, there are also leaders. We focus on inventing things that benefit PEOPLE; therefore we borrow the ideas and invent new things according to PEOPLE’s need.

    Clearly, INTP are against ENTPs when it comes to inventions and popularity.

    So I might be wrong in saying Thomas Edison is the inventor but to me it seems like he is the one who designed a workable light bulb and commercialized it.

    "Many people refer to Edison's work as the first incandescent light bulb with high resistance, a small radiating area, and a commercially and uninhibitally but still useful lifetime. In other words his application for patent was the first design suitable for use by energy companies with central generating stations." - Wikipedia
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  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    It just depends on what standard you are using to say which is "more impressive."

    I agree that INTP types usually end up not bothering to market and advertise their achievements; ENTPs have that much going for them, at least, where they do push their ideas and work to externalize them for the benefit of others.

    In the end, Tesla might have been more ingenious/profound in his thinking, but Edison won because he played the game to get his ideas out.

    (tangent: David Bowie was SO cool as Tesla in "The Prestige!")
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maha Raj View Post
    If you start to criticize inventors for borrowing ideas from others, you will have to go all the way back to Greeks or Egyptians. May be you will end up with the Supreme God who created the earth. Creating masterful combinations of ideas is an act of invention.

    If I ask you how to make an electric bulb, you will go and learn how to make it. Once you know the way to combine things to make a pulp, don’t think that it is an easy job and Thomas Edison took credit for creating such an easy thing.

    Before Thomas Edison, people lived in darkness. He did something that gave them light at night. No matter what he did, whom he took the idea from; it’s him who made it happen. We respect him for his work. Just like respecting our mom and dad for providing us with food when we were young. Even though they didn’t farm and make those foods, they cooked them and fed us; so we respect them for that.
    I wasn't critisising Einstein, nor was I trying to trivialize his contributions. I was trying to point out that his means of contribution was indeed typical of an INTP. "Combinatory play" describes what I (and I believe other INTPs) do habitually.

    ENTPs may be more apt to try thinking up radical "new" ideas to create explanations, but INTPs, IMO, are better at fusing a "unified" theory from others (and that is what Einstein did). I am certainly not discrediting Einstein's contributions. Good unifications look amazingly logical/natural after the fact, but nearly impossible to come up with before. That's the trick Einstein pulled off on a regular basis.

    Edison was a trial-and-error fellow--this is a different style. He would physically try different things to see how they worked. The elements that he chose (even knowing what he used as prior knowledge) don't seem all that logical, they just happened to be what worked.

    Tesla would run experiments in his head (or so he claimed). How the mind "simulates" things is quite different from how a computer would (and can often be faster, but almost as accurate). This is closer to what Einstein did. But unifications are a slightly different thing, there is a lot more "logic" to it.

    There is a strange way an idea calls out to be utilized, just so. Utilizing many ideas in this manner can lead to amazingly elegant unifications. That is the attraction (and trap) of String Theory.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #30
    Member Maha Raj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post

    ENTPs may be more apt to try thinking up radical "new" ideas to create explanations, but INTPs, IMO, are better at fusing a "unified" theory from others (and that is what Einstein did). I am certainly not discrediting Einstein's contributions. Good unifications look amazingly logical/natural after the fact, but nearly impossible to come up with before. That's the trick Einstein pulled off on a regular basis.

    Edison was a trial-and-error fellow--this is a different style. He would physically try different things to see how they worked. The elements that he chose (even knowing what he used as prior knowledge) don't seem all that logical, they just happened to be what worked.
    I am satisfied with your post saying that Einstein could be an ENTP. I always doubted he is an ENTP but most people say that he is INTP because he is somewhat antisocial or isolated. It’s wrong because we ENTPs could be antisocial and isolated for longtime if we don’t see our views to be welcomed by others.

    However, we are most likely try hard to prove them that they are wrong; INTPs simply bail out but stick to their views. That’s why we can say INTPs are scientist and ENTPs are entrepreneurs or inventors.

    Every ENTPs are different. Because of our high use of Ne even if two ENTPs live together for all their life, they may have two different views or understanding of things.

    So its easy to see even though there is a huge gap in similarities between Edison and Einstein, they both could possibly ENTPs.
    "Here I am! Now what are your other two wishes?"

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