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[MBTI General] Dealing with control freak ESFJ/ESTJs

lasdf23

New member
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
44
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3w4
Hi,

I'm a college student majoring in business (ah why did I do that I regret it so much), which, as I learned later (ironically in my organization management class), is predominantly consisting of SJs, especially ESFJ/ESTJs.

Sure enough, the last team project was awful. I was on a team with this long-term friend of mine who was an ESFJ, but half way through the project, she started acting all bitchy at me for no reason (the only think I could think of was because I got much more attention from guys when the project team went to a retreat during spring break. She accused me of acting "loose," but was only nice to me when other guys were around).

She would immediately shoot down any of my contributions to brainstorming, always quick to correct me (which majority of time she turned out to be wrong), and would have to have her way in doing things, whether it's the format of the writing or where to place the picture in the report, what size font to use, etc.

I detest being controlled and told what to do in detail, especially if I am doing things right. So I started withdrawing, only doing what's asked of me to do, never less, but never more. When she would boss me around, I would intentionally not pick up her call, and wait to give her my portion of the work until the last minute deadline.

I am so relieved that the project is finally coming to an end. But I am still angry at her for personally attacking me on many occasions (she's called me "bipolar" because usually I'm a warm friendly person but I started withdrawing). I want to call her out and bitch the crap out of her. But business school is all about keeping your composure, and as much as I hated her treatment of me, I deemed it wise to keep quiet and endure for the duration of the project.

Now that the project is done, I am definitely cutting her off from my contacts, there's no doubts about that. But I have a choice of whether to bring up the problem with her, or just let it pass, and let action speak louder than my words. What would you do if you were in my situation? How in the future can I best deal with these control freak people?
 

Craft

Probably Most Brilliant
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
1,221
MBTI Type
INFJ
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5w7
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sx/so
As with any unhealthy type, be frank to them and leave them as fast as you can. Do not hesitate or tolerate in these circumstances but do not become a savage beast.

Let them think for themselves.


"Dammit woman! I'm tired of your x and y's!" "Listen! You are too X and too Y" "Please think about that" *leave*.
 

Thalassa

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May 3, 2009
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sx
1) Are you sure she isn't ESTJ? I ask this because I've been close to ESFJs and they tend to take on a mother hen type of role, even when they're unhealthy it's just like weirdly INVASIVE and manipulative oh my god...shooting down your ideas and correcting you in vivid detail seems more ESTJ imo.

2) In my experience in dealing with particularly irritating ESxJs (though there are a few ESFJs I am fond of) the only way to deal with them is to avoid them. I've had probably more than my fair share of confrontations with evil ESxJ women and frankly it just seems like a pointless fight to the death with no real resolution. It seems to me that if she were an ESFJ, and really your friend, you'd be able to connect with her through Fe. If you feel that you can't do that and reason with her directly, then just end the friendship.

3) In the future, just smile and nod, unless it's really important, then assert yourself.
 

_dp

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Oct 11, 2009
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37
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enfj
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1w2
Personally, when I work with Ne dominants, I can sometimes see them as a bit "out there" or "not focused." It's not so much your problem - the Ne penchance for pulling ideas from random places out of thin air is awesome. Just that Si people have a pretty set way of doing things I guess?
I mean, sometimes, it's better to conform to the expected way of doing things and just force a bit of Si into you now and then. You're not exactly helping by responding to her in such a fashion either - withdrawing, handing things in late - this just makes her more resentful.
In my opinion she's just acting as ESxJs act best - keeping things under controlled for the good of the group/project. It may be partly that ENTPs don't work well under such an influence that you're reacting this way. Do consider that she may be just as right as you are.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
MBTI Type
INFJ
I understand your frustration.:hug: I don't know anyone who enjoys being in the presence of overzealous controllers, including other overzealous controllers! It's particularly bothersome when we are treated harshly by people we care about without what seems to be just cause. It seems unacceptable for your friend to have handled her displeasure with you as she did; but also, we can underestimate our contributions to problematic situations. Sometimes long-time friends will allow offenses to accumulate until they hit a breaking point. When they begin to unravel on you, it may feel as though they're coming out of left field; but to them, the fallout was a long-time coming.

In truth, people always have a reason for their actions. Jealousy, as you already mentioned, could have been the case. Maybe not though. Perhaps she felt as though some of your interactions with the male members were distractions from the group, or an unwelcome change to what she believed to be the group dynamic and the goals that were originally set forth. Simply ask her why she treated you the way that she did. Let her know how you were impacted; how you withdrew exactly because of the way she was treating you.

Controlling people are usually "helper" personality types gone wild, but not necessarily SJs. Often times they're under considerable stress, feeling resentful, and taken advantage of in some way. You will gain insight through a cooperative discussion with her, even if you decide to leave your friendship behind.
 

sLiPpY

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sp/sx
Controlling types eh?!? Just give them some positive feed back.

i.e. You know, you're annoying as piss. Fuck off! :smile:
 
O

Oberon

Guest
I have found that we ENTPs tend to both annoy controlling types and inspire them to action... specifically, action to control us. I have worked for a boss just like the person you describe in the OP.

My solution? I worked on my resume.
 

Halla74

Artisan Conquerer
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Jan 20, 2009
Messages
6,898
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sx/so
Read this to save your sanity, and maybe even your life.

http://www.tonguefu.com/media/articles/dealing_critic.html

Control freaks are far more prevalent than you most people realize...
 

proximo

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Nov 4, 2009
Messages
584
I've often found that at the root of this sort of behaviour is a kind of jealousy. It's typical behaviour for many people, when jealous, to resort to "denouncing" the other person, making them look bad/stupid, deny them the opportunity to demonstrate their "perceived"/feared superiority etc... perhaps it was the attention you got from the guys, perhaps it's just that she felt threatened by you in regard to the work, if you're good at it.

Well if you're cutting her off and don't have to deal with her again, then what's the point having it out with her? Think carefully about WHY you feel that need, and you might find that the need diminishes in the face of the honest answer...

I say that because I found when I did that, in most cases I realised that no constructive purpose could be served by "having it out" with the person in question. I knew that nothing would be achieved - they wouldn't listen, they wouldn't change their mind, they were highly unlikely to apologise - so the real reason was simply revenge for my bruised pride. Vanity. When I realised that... well, I didn't want to do it so much. But that depends on your values - personally I value quite highly the ability to resist my personal vices such as pride and vanity, and it makes me feel happier to know that I have resisted them, and the resultant chaos that comes from giving into them. It only makes situations worse.

So just put her behind you, let your actions speak for you (as you rightly suggested), and get on with your life. That way, you win. She's been a slave to her vices, but you've not let her drag you down with her.
 

Rainne

One day and the next
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Mar 7, 2010
Messages
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She probably thought you were distracting the group, drawing attention away from her (the leader), and hindering the overall success/progress of the project. It could have been a legitimate concern.
 
O

Oberon

Guest
She probably thought you were distracting the group, drawing attention away from her (the leader), and hindering the overall success/progress of the project. It could have been a legitimate concern.

Perhaps, but her response doesn't appear to have addressed it effectively.
 

proximo

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She probably thought you were distracting the group, drawing attention away from her (the leader), and hindering the overall success/progress of the project. It could have been a legitimate concern.

If that were the case, she went the wrong way about addressing it. It would've been more professional and decent to have discussed her concerns and given the OP a chance to understand/respond honestly. In my experience, if someone's motives are legitimate and innocent, they tend to bring up their concerns openly.
 

Rainne

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Ya, a 1 to 1 talk would have been good instead of this indirect petty power struggle.
 

proximo

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But then again, the OP also allowed the situation to continue for a long time without making any effort herself to confront the situation professionally and openly. That sort of places her half-way up the hill as opposed to up there on the moral high ground... lol
 

Halla74

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I've often found that at the root of this sort of behaviour is a kind of jealousy. It's typical behaviour for many people, when jealous, to resort to "denouncing" the other person, making them look bad/stupid, deny them the opportunity to demonstrate their "perceived"/feared superiority etc... perhaps it was the attention you got from the guys, perhaps it's just that she felt threatened by you in regard to the work, if you're good at it.

Yes, I agree, jealousy, insecurity, bitterness of many variants can be the root of control freak behaviors.

Many of these people are emotionally juvenile, in that they blame other people for all the things that have gone wrong in their lives. Most normal people begin to accept responsibility for their actions and behaviors starting at an early age, and progress gradually and incrementally through life's maturation processes. Not control freaks. They remain bitter, selfish, and resentful.

Finally, I'd like to add that some of these people are simply assholes. Believe it. They simply think they are hot shit and are entitled to be abusive toward others. As far fetched as that sounds to normal people like us, sadliy it is the case.

I highly recommned that anyone who has to deal with a control freak of some kind handle their conflict in a head-on manner. These people are often liars, and thus will not be able to back their thoughts, actions, or alibis past a very short period of time before the present. They feel it is hard to hit a moving target, and that lying constantly is a means of preventing others from figuring out their game, but that technique turns against them viciously if an outside party becomes aware of their nature and begins documenting events on a chronological and verifiable basis, for use in a more formal setting later on, or so I've heard. :whistling:
 

proximo

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I highly recommned that anyone who has to deal with a control freak of some kind handle their conflict in a head-on manner. These people are often liars, and thus will not be able to back their thoughts, actions, or alibis past a very short period of time before the present. They feel it is hard to hit a moving target, and that lying constantly is a means of preventing others from figuring out their game, but that technique turns against them viciously if an outside party becomes aware of their nature and begins documenting events on a chronological and verifiable basis, for use in a more formal setting later on, or so I've heard. :whistling:

Yes, I've had to resort to that too... I know a couple of professional gaslighters! I've made them "fear me" by calling them out openly, armed with verifiable facts!

Which seems obvious as a strategy, but as I'm by nature an easy-going person, it doesn't come naturally to me at all to start tallying and keeping score of things people do. I'm not a natural memoriser either, so it's hard for me to actually remember stuff in detail after it's happened. Specially since I'm not a details person, so I don't even notice half the details even at the time.

But I have tried to make sure that whenever I'm around such people, I've got another person there too, an independent witness so to speak, who can not only back me up, but help me get my story straight by filling in details I missed.
 

Halla74

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Yes, I've had to resort to that too... I know a couple of professional gaslighters! I've made them "fear me" by calling them out openly, armed with verifiable facts!

Hee Hee Hee. :devil: Don't fuck with a fucker. :vader1:

Which seems obvious as a strategy, but as I'm by nature an easy-going person, it doesn't come naturally to me at all to start tallying and keeping score of things people do. I'm not a natural memoriser either, so it's hard for me to actually remember stuff in detail after it's happened. Specially since I'm not a details person, so I don't even notice half the details even at the time.

I know what you mean, I am very easy going as well until something triggers me to be wary, and that point I am immediately tactical.

But I have tried to make sure that whenever I'm around such people, I've got another person there too, an independent witness so to speak, who can not only back me up, but help me get my story straight by filling in details I missed.

This is A+ platinum advice here, my firend. :nice:

In one of my recent dealings with such a moron they denied rear-ending my car, which was quickly proven to have occurred because I saw two people I knew proximal to the incident out the corner of my eye as it happened, and had them questioned by the investigator. Ooops. At that point they were proven to be a liar, and things went down hill for them from that point forward. :violin:
 

lasdf23

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Jan 31, 2010
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ENTP
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3w4
Thanks everybody for your responses. To address a few points brought up:

Maybe your actions were being distracting to the group?
That argument could have been valid before that retreat during spring break. I was trying to maintain an easy-going open atmosphere as much as possible, and true, people have told me that I seem flirty even when I do not intend to. (Actually, when I really try to flirt I become so bad at it. Fun conversations are never flirting in my opinion, and that comes easy. But body touches on the other hand...:-( but that's another story)

After the retreat I was so exhausted from interacting with this group that I did not want to make any contacts with the majority of the teammates beyond what is necessary to work. Yet, her bitching continued as I described.

It's good to have somebody on your side
Yes! I totally agree! There is one person in my group, a very likeable guy, probably an ENFJ or an ENTJ. He actually came to me during the retreat and asked me "Do you think [that girl] is talking down to you?" He has been a confidante of mine since then, standing up for me in situations where I need objective support.

for example.

ESFJ girl:"Talk through your part in 2 minutes!"
Me: (Wow that's impossible, it's a really important part of the project, tons of information to build up for the recommendations that come later... but whatever, I don't want her to keep nit picking anymore so guess I'll do it).

...

ESFJ girl:"You rushed soooo much in your part during practice, you NEED to SLOW DOWN!"
Me: (...well DUH!)
ENTJ/ENFJ friend: "But in her defense, she did make the 2 minute mark you asked!"
Me: :)

Your withdrawal and unwillingness to cooperate was feeding her fury
This I do agree. My Ne hits overdrive under stress, picking up hints and interpreting them to be malicious (perhaps a bit too much at times), which gives me further reasons to distance myself. To be fair, I was never unwilling to cooperate. I never turned in any of my work LATE, I just waited until the deadline even if I had the work done. I did want to see her pissed even more though because..well, she is just, such an attention-seeking high-maintainance ..b*tch! She gets hysteric when she's pissed off (which seems like 70% of her being, I kid you not), it's kind of hilarious to watch.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever since I grew quiet, she's the only one in the group distracting the work flow with her incessant complaints about her boyfriend (who is the nicest guy in the world!), her school work, and her other non-related "victim-talk" nonsense (omg this room is SOO COLD!). But the team just doesn't do anything about it until the ENTJ/ENFJ guy chimes in. "Guys, we need to focus here!" I could say something, but I honestly don't care enough to...

She is a self-typed ESFJ, though I do think she's more ESTJ.
  • She's really into timetables and schedules (Te?)
  • She insists on following a previous team's outline of the report word for word without evaluating whether the team's work is applicable to ours (Si?)
  • She's an attention seeking hypochondriac (as described above)
  • She thinks she's being a good person by being "blunt" (which is often times more direct attacks on people but she justifies them)

I hope I haven't alienated some SJ people who have seen this thread, I am also curious to know what you find annoying when working with groups.

Thanks so much everyone for such constructive advices. As much as I hit the sore spot on the ESFJ girl (because she made it personal and deserved it!), I would like to avoid conflicts like this as much as possible in the future. I probably won't confront her directly, but I will remove her from my facebook friends list haha
 

INTPness

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Why wasn't the ENTJ making the decisions?

In my experience with ESFJ's, I have come to the conclusion that the only effective thing I can do when faced with a situation like this is to continue to be respectful, but only talk to them when they ask me a question or if I need to know something. I take the approach that "we're in a work situation, so for the sake of peace and of completing the work, I'm going to work with you." They learn very quickly that they absolutely are not going to effect my happiness. I will remain positive despite your attitude and controlling efforts. And they know that if they see me outside of the group, that I probably won't have much to say to them. I'm respectful, but I'm short and to the point.

ESFJ: Can you take that and set it over there?
Me: Sure. :cheese:
ESFJ: Now take these and distribute them.
Me: OK. :)
ESFJ: What's wrong with you?
Me: Wrong? Nothing. Did you want these things separated or stapled?
ESFJ: Stapled.

They learn very quickly that I'm filling my role in order to finish the project effectively. You personally do not have the authority over me that you think you do.

I had an ESFJ one time who was not my boss (but was desperately trying to be when it was only her and I working together) say, "You know, I get paid more than you because I have more responsibility than you." That was her way of saying, "When I ask you to do something, you should do it." I said, "Yeah, we all get paid well in here. What does that have to do with anything?"

I've tried to fight fire with fire with ESFJ's and ESTJ's by unleashing some untamed Ti on them and it's not always effective. It can work with ESTJ's - it is the only method that has successfully gotten an ESTJ to back down and walk away from me (just totally out "T" them and just let it fly), but with ESFJ's it ends up hurting their feelings/making them cry. It's better to respectfully withdraw and then keep contact/conversation to a bare minimum going forward.
 

INTPness

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The most hilarious, recurring Te/Ti argument that I've had with ESTJ supervisors/co-workers in the past is some version of the following:

ESTJ (Monday): You're doing X wrong.
INTP: Oh OK. What's the correct way of doing it?

ESTJ (Tuesday): You're doing Y wrong.
INTP (always striving for competence): Darn it! I'll get the hang of that soon. You just watch. Sorry about that.

ESTJ (Wednesday): You're doing Z wrong.
INTP (beginning to see a pattern and knowing that it's not all wrong): Hmmm. Man, I keep messing up. Do people usually get the hang of this faster than me or is it normal for it to take a while?

ESTJ (Thursday): You're doing Q wrong.
INTP (pressure beginning to build, but trying to remain respectful): Grrr! It seems like I'm doing a lot of things wrong around here. Am I working out OK as an employee? I'm just wondering because every job I've ever had I've been really good at, but I don't seem to be getting the hang of this quite as quickly.

ESTJ (Friday): You're doing F wrong.
INTP: Dude, I've been watching and listening to you for 6 months now and every single thing that anyone does is wrong. Everything is wrong to you. Do you watch your wife cook at night and tell her she's using the wrong knife? Do you tell your dog that he's barking wrong? It must be pure hell to go out to dinner with you or to go on vacation with you. How does anyone do anything right around you? You think you're such a brilliant "numbers guy" - here's some probability for you: Just by pure chance or pure luck, one of these days I'm going to walk into this place and do something right for a change. Do you think that's in the cards for me? Do you think that's something that might happen one of these days? Are the chances in my favor or should I just quit now? Let me know as soon as you figure it out because if you think the answer is no, then there's really no point in me being here anymore, but if you think things might start to turn around for me, maybe I can stick around and be trusted to do my work competently. Ball is in your court. Excuse me while I get back to work.

ESTJ: :shock:
 
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