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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasdf23 View Post
    ESFJ girl:"Talk through your part in 2 minutes!"
    Me: (Wow that's impossible, it's a really important part of the project, tons of information to build up for the recommendations that come later... but whatever, I don't want her to keep nit picking anymore so guess I'll do it).

    ...

    ESFJ girl:"You rushed soooo much in your part during practice, you NEED to SLOW DOWN!"
    Me: (...well DUH!)
    ENTJ/ENFJ friend: "But in her defense, she did make the 2 minute mark you asked!"
    Me: :-)
    Maybe it's because I'm ENFP and have tertiary Te, but I have no problem responding to people who talk to me like that. I think I must have a very developed ISTJ shadow or something, but I don't put up with it and wait for other people to back me up. I think because of the level of nastiness with which she talked to you (calling you loose and bipolar, etc.), she was trying to dominate you and once she found you could be dominated, she just kept it up.

    Your withdrawal and unwillingness to cooperate was feeding her fury
    This I do agree. My Ne hits overdrive under stress, picking up hints and interpreting them to be malicious (perhaps a bit too much at times), which gives me further reasons to distance myself. To be fair, I was never unwilling to cooperate. I never turned in any of my work LATE, I just waited until the deadline even if I had the work done. I did want to see her pissed even more though because..well, she is just, such an attention-seeking high-maintainance ..b*tch! She gets hysteric when she's pissed off (which seems like 70% of her being, I kid you not), it's kind of hilarious to watch.
    You sound passive-aggressive. I'm VERY direct. Your methods are probably much more effective in driving a person like this crazy, so maybe you're on to something.

    Ever since I grew quiet, she's the only one in the group distracting the work flow with her incessant complaints about her boyfriend (who is the nicest guy in the world!), her school work, and her other non-related "victim-talk" nonsense (omg this room is SOO COLD!).
    How is complaining that the room is cold "victim talk"?

    She is a self-typed ESFJ, though I do think she's more ESTJ.
    • She's really into timetables and schedules (Te?)
    • She insists on following a previous team's outline of the report word for word without evaluating whether the team's work is applicable to ours (Si?)
    • Sounds like an STJ.

    • She's an attention seeking hypochondriac (as described above)
    Because she complains about being cold?

  2. She thinks she's being a good person by being "blunt" (which is often times more direct attacks on people but she justifies them)
Ha ha...I'm guilty of this too...I'm seriously thinking your friend is an ESTJ.

You do realize that Fe doms are usually more careful with what they say, right? If she were ESFJ she might be equally as controlling, but I doubt she'd openly pride herself on being blunt. Generally they achieve control with a certain level of manipulation that they may or may not be able to even be called out on. Fe would boss you around, but be a bit more smooth about it.

I hope I haven't alienated some SJ people who have seen this thread, I am also curious to know what you find annoying when working with groups.

Thanks so much everyone for such constructive advices. As much as I hit the sore spot on the ESFJ girl (because she made it personal and deserved it!), I would like to avoid conflicts like this as much as possible in the future. I probably won't confront her directly, but I will remove her from my facebook friends list haha

Well, the only way to avoid confrontations with someone like that is to avoid them. However, I think just deleting people from your facebook and not confronting them directly is passive-aggressive and may inadvertantly cause MORE drama. I'd just tell her why you don't want to be friends anymore in a short email so you don't have to deal with a face-to-face confrontation if it bothers you so much.
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  • #22
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    Yeah INTPness's description of the ESTJ boss fits very well. I'm starting be more convinced that she's an ESTJ instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    You sound passive-aggressive. I'm VERY direct. Your methods are probably much more effective in driving a person like this crazy, so maybe you're on to something.
    Haha I didn't realize it but yes, I do have to agree, that does make me passive-aggressive. It's never my thing to confront people directly (unless it's somebody I care about and want to make a direct impact in his/her life). If I don't like somebody, I will not deliberately hurt you but I will wait it out until you fail, and get secret guilty pleasure out of it. And if you don't fail at all, well then, you got me. I will admit that I was wrong. That's been my approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    How is complaining that the room is cold "victim talk"?
    To follow up on her complaints:

    ESTJ girl: "omg this room is SOO COLD!! (looks around, everybody else is in t-shirts) I always get so cold, I have to wear my peacoat otherwise I'd get sick. Let me check the thermostat. What!? 76? It should be 78! I'm raising it by 2 degrees I hope you guys are ok with that!!"

    Other examples of victim talk throughout the retreat:

    At the restaurant,
    ESTJ girl: "omg this pasta is so.. bitter! I can't eat it. Somebody else taste it for me please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this pasta is bitter!"
    ENFJ guy: (annoyed) "[girl's name], you know I ordered the same thing as you right? I'm eating it now and its tastes great. But good job ruining my appetite (half kidding but half serious)."

    Other common phrases from her:
    "This is so hot/cold/wet/dry/dirty/(though probably not clean) I can't deal with it!"
    "Oh my stomach hurts so much, maybe cause I didn't eat today"
    ...


    it's fine when those phrases come out occasionally, but when that's all a person talks about, (me Me ME I'm so special, I have high standards) it's sure to grow on my nerves. Maybe I got the definition of "victim-talk" wrong, but you get the gist of it..

    The email idea sounds about a good compromise between confronting and letting it slip. I should definitely give that a thought.

  • #23
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    You mentioned that this was a long-term friend of yours. Did she turn into a she devil overnight, or is this the last straw?
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  • #24
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Could your friend possibly of been incredibly stressed out???

    I know when i stress out i become a control freak .. It is not usually towards other people though, more towards myself (vicious circle).

    I am also very proud and i don't want to tell/show people i am not handling the pressure very well .. Silly me!

    Just an idea.

    Good luck anyway
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
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  • #25
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    Long term as in 3 years throughout college. She's a year ahead of me so the first 2 1/2 years she was like my mentor. She helped me with applications into this business school, gave me answers to the classes that she's taken previously, etc, without me asking.

    I've always realized she's a demanding nagging person who always wants her opinions heard, but that didn't bother me much because I didn't see her often enough, and she was nice to me, back then at least. Now she acts like she's back in high school doing the whole clique thing. What a disappointment.

  • #26
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasdf23 View Post

    I've always realized she's a demanding nagging person who always wants her opinions heard, but that didn't bother me much because I didn't see her often enough, and she was nice to me, back then at least. Now she acts like she's back in high school doing the whole clique thing. What a disappointment.
    That does suck .. You don't need friends like that. Break free and allow her some time to gain some life experience/wisdom and hopefully should you meet again in the future she'll be less demanding and less of a nag.

    Ever the optimist

    It is a shame you have that particular dynamic going .. My good friend who's an ENTP, if we got together again, i think we'd be dead or in prison. He's a good laugh. Luckily we are different islands at present, lol.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
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  • #27
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    Beat the shit out of them.

  • #28
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    As a "controller" myself, I relate to the act of being impossibly domineering (in a different way) when I desperately need to get things done. It's the sort of intensity I put myself through to complete solitary assignments, but it leaves me unprepared to deal with the tasks that involves other teammates... and a short timer!

    Luckily, I believe this condition is solvable. There is also a very similar story on this: Jean, The Enneagram One

    I second Saslou's opinions on both posts. Your friend is definitely stressed, and she'll need a little space to regain her balance. The easiest way to get right to the point is to figure out what is causing her to become unpleasant. Avoid playing her power games, and if you can, deliver a well-thought out solution right to her door. Once you show her how she could reach her own goals, and include other people (good or bad), she'll be less of the nag she unfortunately became to be. She may be right on one small matter, somewhere, but she doesn't have to hammer everyone down to get there. You're in a team here, and it means that everyone has a part in the project.

    Quote Originally Posted by lasdf23 View Post
    Long term as in 3 years throughout college. She's a year ahead of me so the first 2 1/2 years she was like my mentor. She helped me with applications into this business school, gave me answers to the classes that she's taken previously, etc, without me asking.

    I've always realized she's a demanding nagging person who always wants her opinions heard, but that didn't bother me much because I didn't see her often enough, and she was nice to me, back then at least. Now she acts like she's back in high school doing the whole clique thing. What a disappointment.
    In my experience, uber-stressed ESTJs are the most difficult to deal with, but I've managed to get them to calm down just by actively listening to them. For five-ten minutes at least, sympathize with selected points whenever you can, prove to them that you've understood their message/intention, and are working towards a similar end. You'll be surprised how quickly they will change at that point. I also have an ISFJ mother, and nothing fueled her wrath as quickly as silence. My INTP father, being much like you in this situation, seemed to never be in short supply of it.

    Taking a quick guess, I'd say she might be afraid of losing the friendship she had prior to the project. Since you're taking less and less of her advice, she feels no long valuable to you in the way she once was. And because you're doing so well, she was unready to deal with that, as a friend and a business student (there's still competition). When the frustration tempers down, I'd really try to see if reassuring that she's an invaluable person to you, and you appreciate her good contributions, would help. Business can be one cutthroat industry, but I'd try explaining that it's not worth loosing friends over, and more than one person can be good at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lasdf23 View Post
    At the restaurant,
    ESTJ girl: "omg this pasta is so.. bitter! I can't eat it. Somebody else taste it for me please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this pasta is bitter!"
    ENFJ guy: (annoyed) "[girl's name], you know I ordered the same thing as you right? I'm eating it now and its tastes great. But good job ruining my appetite (half kidding but half serious)."

    Other common phrases from her:
    "This is so hot/cold/wet/dry/dirty/(though probably not clean) I can't deal with it!"
    "Oh my stomach hurts so much, maybe cause I didn't eat today"
    Ouch! That girl has a long way to go on living with imperfect standards. Best lesson? Ask, "Well, what are you going to do about it?" Let the child cry until they start dealing with the problem on their own, instead of expecting the forces of nature to bend to her will.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    The most hilarious, recurring Te/Ti argument that I've had with ESTJ supervisors/co-workers in the past is some version of the following:

    ESTJ (Monday): You're doing X wrong.
    INTP: Oh OK. What's the correct way of doing it?

    ESTJ (Tuesday): You're doing Y wrong.
    INTP (always striving for competence): Darn it! I'll get the hang of that soon. You just watch. Sorry about that.

    ESTJ (Wednesday): You're doing Z wrong.
    INTP (beginning to see a pattern and knowing that it's not all wrong): Hmmm. Man, I keep messing up. Do people usually get the hang of this faster than me or is it normal for it to take a while?

    ESTJ (Thursday): You're doing Q wrong.
    INTP (pressure beginning to build, but trying to remain respectful): Grrr! It seems like I'm doing a lot of things wrong around here. Am I working out OK as an employee? I'm just wondering because every job I've ever had I've been really good at, but I don't seem to be getting the hang of this quite as quickly.

    ESTJ (Friday): You're doing F wrong.
    INTP: Dude, I've been watching and listening to you for 6 months now and every single thing that anyone does is wrong. Everything is wrong to you. Do you watch your wife cook at night and tell her she's using the wrong knife? Do you tell your dog that he's barking wrong? It must be pure hell to go out to dinner with you or to go on vacation with you. How does anyone do anything right around you? You think you're such a brilliant "numbers guy" - here's some probability for you: Just by pure chance or pure luck, one of these days I'm going to walk into this place and do something right for a change. Do you think that's in the cards for me? Do you think that's something that might happen one of these days? Are the chances in my favor or should I just quit now? Let me know as soon as you figure it out because if you think the answer is no, then there's really no point in me being here anymore, but if you think things might start to turn around for me, maybe I can stick around and be trusted to do my work competently. Ball is in your court. Excuse me while I get back to work.

    ESTJ:
    On Wednesday, I'd tell the supervisors the importance of allowing me to learn on the job, and I'll ask them for the kinds of things they look for in a worker. Fulfill that part (in your own way), and you should fly right through. People are only like this because they can't articulate their demands well enough, so they don't have to bother their workers every micro-second and drain their energy in the process.
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  • #29
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmed Justice View Post
    You mentioned that this was a long-term friend of yours. Did she turn into a she devil overnight, or is this the last straw?
    This is a good question that ENxP's do well to ask themselves with integrity in situations like this. Because we do have a tendendy to put people on pedestals based on what good points we've seen in them that we like, coupled with the "connections" between them our own intuition (fallible!) has made to build a picture of who they are entirely, to a sort of infatuation. Then it only takes them to do something we don't like, to break the spell as it were, and suddenly we're doing the same thing with the bad points... infatuation in reverse?
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  • #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasdf23 View Post
    Hi,

    I'm a college student majoring in business (ah why did I do that I regret it so much), which, as I learned later (ironically in my organization management class), is predominantly consisting of SJs, especially ESFJ/ESTJs.
    Cool. I'm studying business too.

    It's called the pecking order. She is establishing dominance over you in front of the others and you are letting her. Her goal is to make you her second in command.

    Typically the people who are competitive with each other have similar personality types, not opposing types- hence the pecking order. But you probably know her type since you took the test together, right?

    Find out what her type is, then go for the jugular. The goal is to make her seem like your assistant, not vice versa.

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