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  1. #11
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainne View Post
    She probably thought you were distracting the group, drawing attention away from her (the leader), and hindering the overall success/progress of the project. It could have been a legitimate concern.
    Perhaps, but her response doesn't appear to have addressed it effectively.

  2. #12
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainne View Post
    She probably thought you were distracting the group, drawing attention away from her (the leader), and hindering the overall success/progress of the project. It could have been a legitimate concern.
    If that were the case, she went the wrong way about addressing it. It would've been more professional and decent to have discussed her concerns and given the OP a chance to understand/respond honestly. In my experience, if someone's motives are legitimate and innocent, they tend to bring up their concerns openly.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  3. #13
    One day and the next Rainne's Avatar
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    Ya, a 1 to 1 talk would have been good instead of this indirect petty power struggle.
    Weathergirl: District 38 is sunny. Slight rock showers this morning. Chance of rock showers into the afternoon—20 percent. District 39 is cloudy. Chance of rock showers this afternoon—10 percent.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    But then again, the OP also allowed the situation to continue for a long time without making any effort herself to confront the situation professionally and openly. That sort of places her half-way up the hill as opposed to up there on the moral high ground... lol
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  5. #15
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    I've often found that at the root of this sort of behaviour is a kind of jealousy. It's typical behaviour for many people, when jealous, to resort to "denouncing" the other person, making them look bad/stupid, deny them the opportunity to demonstrate their "perceived"/feared superiority etc... perhaps it was the attention you got from the guys, perhaps it's just that she felt threatened by you in regard to the work, if you're good at it.
    Yes, I agree, jealousy, insecurity, bitterness of many variants can be the root of control freak behaviors.

    Many of these people are emotionally juvenile, in that they blame other people for all the things that have gone wrong in their lives. Most normal people begin to accept responsibility for their actions and behaviors starting at an early age, and progress gradually and incrementally through life's maturation processes. Not control freaks. They remain bitter, selfish, and resentful.

    Finally, I'd like to add that some of these people are simply assholes. Believe it. They simply think they are hot shit and are entitled to be abusive toward others. As far fetched as that sounds to normal people like us, sadliy it is the case.

    I highly recommned that anyone who has to deal with a control freak of some kind handle their conflict in a head-on manner. These people are often liars, and thus will not be able to back their thoughts, actions, or alibis past a very short period of time before the present. They feel it is hard to hit a moving target, and that lying constantly is a means of preventing others from figuring out their game, but that technique turns against them viciously if an outside party becomes aware of their nature and begins documenting events on a chronological and verifiable basis, for use in a more formal setting later on, or so I've heard.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post

    I highly recommned that anyone who has to deal with a control freak of some kind handle their conflict in a head-on manner. These people are often liars, and thus will not be able to back their thoughts, actions, or alibis past a very short period of time before the present. They feel it is hard to hit a moving target, and that lying constantly is a means of preventing others from figuring out their game, but that technique turns against them viciously if an outside party becomes aware of their nature and begins documenting events on a chronological and verifiable basis, for use in a more formal setting later on, or so I've heard.
    Yes, I've had to resort to that too... I know a couple of professional gaslighters! I've made them "fear me" by calling them out openly, armed with verifiable facts!

    Which seems obvious as a strategy, but as I'm by nature an easy-going person, it doesn't come naturally to me at all to start tallying and keeping score of things people do. I'm not a natural memoriser either, so it's hard for me to actually remember stuff in detail after it's happened. Specially since I'm not a details person, so I don't even notice half the details even at the time.

    But I have tried to make sure that whenever I'm around such people, I've got another person there too, an independent witness so to speak, who can not only back me up, but help me get my story straight by filling in details I missed.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  7. #17
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    Yes, I've had to resort to that too... I know a couple of professional gaslighters! I've made them "fear me" by calling them out openly, armed with verifiable facts!
    Hee Hee Hee. Don't fuck with a fucker.

    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    Which seems obvious as a strategy, but as I'm by nature an easy-going person, it doesn't come naturally to me at all to start tallying and keeping score of things people do. I'm not a natural memoriser either, so it's hard for me to actually remember stuff in detail after it's happened. Specially since I'm not a details person, so I don't even notice half the details even at the time.
    I know what you mean, I am very easy going as well until something triggers me to be wary, and that point I am immediately tactical.

    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    But I have tried to make sure that whenever I'm around such people, I've got another person there too, an independent witness so to speak, who can not only back me up, but help me get my story straight by filling in details I missed.
    This is A+ platinum advice here, my firend.

    In one of my recent dealings with such a moron they denied rear-ending my car, which was quickly proven to have occurred because I saw two people I knew proximal to the incident out the corner of my eye as it happened, and had them questioned by the investigator. Ooops. At that point they were proven to be a liar, and things went down hill for them from that point forward.
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  8. #18
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    Thanks everybody for your responses. To address a few points brought up:

    Maybe your actions were being distracting to the group?
    That argument could have been valid before that retreat during spring break. I was trying to maintain an easy-going open atmosphere as much as possible, and true, people have told me that I seem flirty even when I do not intend to. (Actually, when I really try to flirt I become so bad at it. Fun conversations are never flirting in my opinion, and that comes easy. But body touches on the other hand...:-( but that's another story)

    After the retreat I was so exhausted from interacting with this group that I did not want to make any contacts with the majority of the teammates beyond what is necessary to work. Yet, her bitching continued as I described.

    It's good to have somebody on your side
    Yes! I totally agree! There is one person in my group, a very likeable guy, probably an ENFJ or an ENTJ. He actually came to me during the retreat and asked me "Do you think [that girl] is talking down to you?" He has been a confidante of mine since then, standing up for me in situations where I need objective support.

    for example.

    ESFJ girl:"Talk through your part in 2 minutes!"
    Me: (Wow that's impossible, it's a really important part of the project, tons of information to build up for the recommendations that come later... but whatever, I don't want her to keep nit picking anymore so guess I'll do it).

    ...

    ESFJ girl:"You rushed soooo much in your part during practice, you NEED to SLOW DOWN!"
    Me: (...well DUH!)
    ENTJ/ENFJ friend: "But in her defense, she did make the 2 minute mark you asked!"
    Me: :-)

    Your withdrawal and unwillingness to cooperate was feeding her fury
    This I do agree. My Ne hits overdrive under stress, picking up hints and interpreting them to be malicious (perhaps a bit too much at times), which gives me further reasons to distance myself. To be fair, I was never unwilling to cooperate. I never turned in any of my work LATE, I just waited until the deadline even if I had the work done. I did want to see her pissed even more though because..well, she is just, such an attention-seeking high-maintainance ..b*tch! She gets hysteric when she's pissed off (which seems like 70% of her being, I kid you not), it's kind of hilarious to watch.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ever since I grew quiet, she's the only one in the group distracting the work flow with her incessant complaints about her boyfriend (who is the nicest guy in the world!), her school work, and her other non-related "victim-talk" nonsense (omg this room is SOO COLD!). But the team just doesn't do anything about it until the ENTJ/ENFJ guy chimes in. "Guys, we need to focus here!" I could say something, but I honestly don't care enough to...

    She is a self-typed ESFJ, though I do think she's more ESTJ.
    • She's really into timetables and schedules (Te?)
    • She insists on following a previous team's outline of the report word for word without evaluating whether the team's work is applicable to ours (Si?)
    • She's an attention seeking hypochondriac (as described above)
    • She thinks she's being a good person by being "blunt" (which is often times more direct attacks on people but she justifies them)


    I hope I haven't alienated some SJ people who have seen this thread, I am also curious to know what you find annoying when working with groups.

    Thanks so much everyone for such constructive advices. As much as I hit the sore spot on the ESFJ girl (because she made it personal and deserved it!), I would like to avoid conflicts like this as much as possible in the future. I probably won't confront her directly, but I will remove her from my facebook friends list haha

  9. #19
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Why wasn't the ENTJ making the decisions?

    In my experience with ESFJ's, I have come to the conclusion that the only effective thing I can do when faced with a situation like this is to continue to be respectful, but only talk to them when they ask me a question or if I need to know something. I take the approach that "we're in a work situation, so for the sake of peace and of completing the work, I'm going to work with you." They learn very quickly that they absolutely are not going to effect my happiness. I will remain positive despite your attitude and controlling efforts. And they know that if they see me outside of the group, that I probably won't have much to say to them. I'm respectful, but I'm short and to the point.

    ESFJ: Can you take that and set it over there?
    Me: Sure.
    ESFJ: Now take these and distribute them.
    Me: OK.
    ESFJ: What's wrong with you?
    Me: Wrong? Nothing. Did you want these things separated or stapled?
    ESFJ: Stapled.

    They learn very quickly that I'm filling my role in order to finish the project effectively. You personally do not have the authority over me that you think you do.

    I had an ESFJ one time who was not my boss (but was desperately trying to be when it was only her and I working together) say, "You know, I get paid more than you because I have more responsibility than you." That was her way of saying, "When I ask you to do something, you should do it." I said, "Yeah, we all get paid well in here. What does that have to do with anything?"

    I've tried to fight fire with fire with ESFJ's and ESTJ's by unleashing some untamed Ti on them and it's not always effective. It can work with ESTJ's - it is the only method that has successfully gotten an ESTJ to back down and walk away from me (just totally out "T" them and just let it fly), but with ESFJ's it ends up hurting their feelings/making them cry. It's better to respectfully withdraw and then keep contact/conversation to a bare minimum going forward.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    The most hilarious, recurring Te/Ti argument that I've had with ESTJ supervisors/co-workers in the past is some version of the following:

    ESTJ (Monday): You're doing X wrong.
    INTP: Oh OK. What's the correct way of doing it?

    ESTJ (Tuesday): You're doing Y wrong.
    INTP (always striving for competence): Darn it! I'll get the hang of that soon. You just watch. Sorry about that.

    ESTJ (Wednesday): You're doing Z wrong.
    INTP (beginning to see a pattern and knowing that it's not all wrong): Hmmm. Man, I keep messing up. Do people usually get the hang of this faster than me or is it normal for it to take a while?

    ESTJ (Thursday): You're doing Q wrong.
    INTP (pressure beginning to build, but trying to remain respectful): Grrr! It seems like I'm doing a lot of things wrong around here. Am I working out OK as an employee? I'm just wondering because every job I've ever had I've been really good at, but I don't seem to be getting the hang of this quite as quickly.

    ESTJ (Friday): You're doing F wrong.
    INTP: Dude, I've been watching and listening to you for 6 months now and every single thing that anyone does is wrong. Everything is wrong to you. Do you watch your wife cook at night and tell her she's using the wrong knife? Do you tell your dog that he's barking wrong? It must be pure hell to go out to dinner with you or to go on vacation with you. How does anyone do anything right around you? You think you're such a brilliant "numbers guy" - here's some probability for you: Just by pure chance or pure luck, one of these days I'm going to walk into this place and do something right for a change. Do you think that's in the cards for me? Do you think that's something that might happen one of these days? Are the chances in my favor or should I just quit now? Let me know as soon as you figure it out because if you think the answer is no, then there's really no point in me being here anymore, but if you think things might start to turn around for me, maybe I can stick around and be trusted to do my work competently. Ball is in your court. Excuse me while I get back to work.

    ESTJ:
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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