[MBTI General] Relative strength of intuition vs. sensing

[INTPness]

If sensing represents practicality and a focus on the concrete (and not running into walls, like I occasionally do), then intuition is - well, something different than that.

Many ENFP's and ENTP's (and also INTP's and INFP's) that I've known have been seen by sensors as "out there" or "a little loopy" - eccentric daydreamers, if you will. We know that's not true (entirely), but that's how they see us because we are so much different than them.

I was thinking the other day about how - as much as I enjoy the theoretical and throwing around ideas and concepts - there is also something in me that says, "it doesn't mean anything unless it becomes tangible". I was thinking, "If you have great ideas, then you have to strive to at least turn one of them into some sort of reality - something that benefits someone or some thing in some real way." I don't want my tombstone to read, "He had a bunch of great ideas. What a fellow!"

Then I started wondering if ENTP's and ENFP's would be even "more theory, less tangible" than myself, being that their intuition is primary and their sensing is inferior. My intuition is only auxiliary and my sensing is tertiary. What I'm getting at is that sensing (concrete/practical) and intuition (ideas, concepts, theories) are "closer together" for me (2nd and 3rd functions) than they are for ENTP's and ENFP's (1st and 4th functions - big difference). In other words, if all other things are equal, perhaps I place more importance on the practical things of life than those types. I don't consider myself more practical or sensing than anyone (I'm very much an intuitive), but I wonder what ENTP's and ENFP's would say about this relation between sensing and intuition.

Then I realized that INTJ's and INFJ's also have intuition as their primary function (but it's Ni, not Ne) and sensing as their inferior. But, they seem fairly practical in comparison to myself - meaning that sensors don't see them as being as "loopy" or "out of touch" as they see the Ne types.

That's it. Would love to hear what people think.

 

[sculpting]

Because the Ni doms have Se as their inferior, it seems to give them a firmer grip on reality. This is very obvious in the INTJs and the need for something concrete and real to result from Ni-go check out ayn rand to see the theme. I dunno bout INFJs-but they do seem grounded.

Really young Ne doms seem kind of like me-very prone to silly antics and endless connections. Ne is very playful and only cares about the next interesting thing, when unleashed from a judging function. Only novelty holds value-if the idea is well understood, then we leave it behind to find a new idea.

The entps that I watch are still very Ne but the older ones balance their ideas using inferior Si. They may have a lot of good ideas but they screen them via TiSi (?) to identify the more practical ones. They also seem to want to have a positive impact on the group-they are oddly nuturing and motherly Fe? In some this is a bit of a mask effect to accomplish an objective, but in others there seems to be a very real drive to care for the group. But n=11 or so, so it is a small number.

The older enfps I see are oddly practical as well. The still use a lot of Ne but again seem to screen against Si. But I have fewer of these to watch.

 

[INTPness]

Because the Ni doms have Se as their inferior, it seems to give them a firmer grip on reality. This is very obvious in the INTJs and the need for something concrete and real to result from Ni-go check out ayn rand to see the theme. I dunno bout INFJs-but they do seem grounded.

Really young Ne doms seem kind of like me-very prone to silly antics and endless connections. Ne is very playful and only cares about the next interesting thing, when unleashed from a judging function. Only novelty holds value-if the idea is well understood, then we leave it behind to find a new idea.

The entps that I watch are still very Ne but the older ones balance their ideas using inferior Si. They may have a lot of good ideas but they screen them via TiSi (?) to identify the more practical ones. They also seem to want to have a positive impact on the group-they are oddly nuturing and motherly Fe? In some this is a bit of a mask effect to accomplish an objective, but in others there seems to be a very real drive to care for the group. But n=11 or so, so it is a small number.

The older enfps I see are oddly practical as well. The still use a lot of Ne but again seem to screen against Si. But I have fewer of these to watch.

Good info. Thanks. ENTP's and ENFP's definitely use Si, otherwise it would really get crazy. The Si is what keeps our feet on the ground so to speak. But, what I'm getting at is do you think it is harder for ENTP's and ENFP's to stay in a "tangible" frame of mind than it is for INTP's/INFP's, because of the relative positioning of Ne vs. Si?

 

[Laurie]

My brother's gf was personally tested as ENFP with N off the charts. I find it interesting because she has a hard time fitting into the world. It's like she is from a different planet. I'm getting the feeling she has some of the issues people talk about too much N having. I don't mean being out there, I mean actually fitting into the world. She is older than me.

OT I'm very loopy.

 

[sculpting]

Good info. Thanks. ENTP's and ENFP's definitely use Si, otherwise it would really get crazy. The Si is what keeps our feet on the ground so to speak. But, what I'm getting at is do you think it is harder for ENTP's and ENFP's to stay in a "tangible" frame of mind than it is for INTP's/INFP's, because of the relative positioning of Ne vs. Si?

I think they do absolutely but It may get outweighed by the extroversion if you are measuring by tangible results. Even though the INTP idea will be more practical and rigorous-tertSi, then ENTP half baked idea may get accepted as the entp can put on a very polished shiny show-tertFe-even if the idea lacks grounding. I have a crazy entp I work with who does this all of the time. It took about five cycles of ideas before everyone figured out he was crazy. He never follows up on anything.

My brother's gf was personally tested as ENFP with N off the charts. I find it interesting because she has a hard time fitting into the world. It's like she is from a different planet. I'm getting the feeling she has some of the issues people talk about too much N having. I don't mean being out there, I mean actually fitting into the world. She is older than me.

OT I'm very loopy.

It appears I use a lot of Ne. I maxed out the NP socres on four different official MBTI tests. Internally I feel very weird and dont feel like I fit in at all as I see stuff so differently from most people. Externally I seem to done some really strange crap with Te and Si, so I can look very analytical and pragmatic and remain employed and be quite stable. But inside my head-I have all types of silly ideas. That's part of the reason I like this place is that is is like a release valve for the excess Ne.

 

[INTPness]

My brother's gf was personally tested as ENFP with N off the charts. I find it interesting because she has a hard time fitting into the world. It's like she is from a different planet. I'm getting the feeling she has some of the issues people talk about too much N having. I don't mean being out there, I mean actually fitting into the world. She is older than me.

OT I'm very loopy.

Being "out there" (relative to sensors) is the reason why she has problems fitting into the world. I think all Ne users identify with this on some level. Some more than others, obviously. Sounds like she is one that really struggles with it.

I know an ENFP who is very easy to talk to and people like her. But, the more that sensors get to know her, they think, "She's out in left field. She's all talk, no action. She's a bag of hot air. Fun, bubbly personality, but just kind of floating up in the sky. Needs to come back to earth and put her feet on the ground."

I think she's great and I don't think we should let what others think depress us or get us down (even though that can be hard). So, my point is not that "ENFP's are nutty". I can relate to them, believe me. I have struggled myself with "fitting in" with sensors.

 

[INTPness]

I think they do absolutely but It may get outweighed by the extroversion if you are measuring by tangible results. Even though the INTP idea will be more practical and rigorous-tertSi, then ENTP half baked idea may get accepted as the entp can put on a very polished shiny show-tertFe-even if the idea lacks grounding. I have a crazy entp I work with who does this all of the time. It took about five cycles of ideas before everyone figured out he was crazy. He never follows up on anything.

Yes. I agree. I had this thought also. I think that I'm more "S" like than your average ENTP/ENFP, but not by much. But, I think their extroversion overcomes a lot of that.

That's part of the reason I like this place is that is is like a release valve for the excess Ne.

Yep.

 

[ElizaJane]

Good info. Thanks. ENTP's and ENFP's definitely use Si, otherwise it would really get crazy. The Si is what keeps our feet on the ground so to speak. But, what I'm getting at is do you think it is harder for ENTP's and ENFP's to stay in a "tangible" frame of mind than it is for INTP's/INFP's, because of the relative positioning of Ne vs. Si?

I bet you're onto something. I'm thinking of the examples in my life, and the INTPs appear a little more productive. They're mostly writers — published writers*— who have that same "tugging" that you have about creating something tangible using their ideas. The ENTPs and ENFPs don't seem to produce as much physical material, but they do get things done through a different means. The ENTPs and ENFPs I know are teachers and one is a musician — all very inspiring people. There's a lot of auditory material and sharing going on. So, I also think some of it has to do with E vs I and communication style.

Regarding INFJs, I've always felt like there's something in the "J" that cuts through the daydreaminess and says, "Hey, don't spend so much time dreaming — do something!" I envy INFPs for their vivid imaginations that seem unencumbered by life's demands. But, maybe it has more to do with Ni. I'm new at functions.

 

[INTPness]

I bet you're onto something. I'm thinking of the examples in my life, and the INTPs appear a little more productive. They're mostly writers — published writers*— who have that same "tugging" that you have about creating something tangible using their ideas. The ENTPs and ENFPs don't seem to produce as much physical material, but they do get things done through a different means. The ENTPs and ENFPs I know are teachers and one is a musician — all very inspiring people. There's a lot of auditory material and sharing going on. So, I also think some of it has to do with E vs I and communication style.

Regarding INFJs, I've always felt like there's something in the "J" that cuts through the daydreaminess and says, "Hey, don't spend so much time dreaming — do something!" I envy INFPs for their vivid imaginations that seem unencumbered by life's demands. But, maybe it has more to do with Ni. I'm new at functions.

Great input. How do you think you, as an INFJ, are viewed by "the majority" - the sensors of the world? Fairly eccentric, but still grounded?

 

[ElizaJane]

Great input. How do you think you, as an INFJ, are viewed by "the majority" - the sensors of the world? Fairly eccentric, but still grounded?

Exactly — I think people view me as eccentric but hyperaware. I'm big with eye contact, so I'm always zeroed in on the person who is talking. But then when I talk, they look at me like, "How did you arrive at that conclusion?" Sometimes they're interested, and sometimes they're just confused.

One thing about sensors is that they often point out things about my expression and posture that I don't even realize I'm doing. Makes me extra self conscious. Apparently my face is very readable*— especially through my eyebrows. I can't control it!

 

[Laurie]

Being "out there" (relative to sensors) is the reason why she has problems fitting into the world. I think all Ne users identify with this on some level. Some more than others, obviously. Sounds like she is one that really struggles with it.

Well it's not just "fitting in" she actually fits in pretty well, she is interesting and kind. It's figuring what to do with her life, actually doing anything with it, getting a job, doing something productive. She did graduate from college and has many qualities that I think are sellable. She told me she always feels way behind her peers, like everyone else knows what to do and she has to catch up later. Maybe she has other issues I don't know about but its an interesting study in "N that is too high."

 

[Poki]

I tend to get "if this was different" from N types. Like a warning or something.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Then I realized that INTJ's and INFJ's also have intuition as their primary function (but it's Ni, not Ne) and sensing as their inferior. But, they seem fairly practical in comparison to myself - meaning that sensors don't see them as being as "loopy" or "out of touch" as they see the Ne types.

Well there is one trick. We are usually the most calm people around so it is not really obvious how much we are out of touch with reality. Also J helps in covering up the mess in our heads. But beneath the skin we are very similar to Ne-doms. That is why Ne and Ni are considered to be a good romantic match in the first place. A number of people thought that I just a little bit weird when they meet me but only when they saw some of my traits they actually realized with who they are dealing with.


I often cross the road then it is red light on. Which is because I don't watch around me most of the time. Also I am almost completly incapable of doing anything practical unless it trully simple. I can walk and walk without noticing and remembering anything. I mean I pass 10 blocks in a state of daydreaming.


I don't mind wearing one orange and one black sock.
For the most part I don't enjoy in eating food since for some reason I simply can't percive it in that way. So for lunch I can have tuna ,cookies, olives , popcorn, lettuce and a glass of milk. I mean sometimes I simply don't want to waste much time on this so simply grab what I have. Also I don't mix any of those since I have to finnish one grocery before I move to to the next one.
Even if that means eating eggs or caned fish witout any bread.
I mean I can do that but I have to do that willingly.



Once I discovered that someone cut down a tree that you could see throughout my room's window when I was a kid so Asked my father what happened. He told to me that they removed it 2 years ago. You can kill me but I usually don't notice this kinds of things. Neither to I really try to be honest. Also once I wanted to hit one guy with a snowball directly to his head so I prepared an ambush. However the only person I actually hit was my literature teacher. (directly in the head)However since it was from an ambush I managed to run away without anyone seeing me.


Many people said to me that watching me from affar how I behave can be quite comical. While I am not trying to be comical it is just that it turns out that way. So just because someone looks business-like from affar that does not mean that he/she is really like that.

 

[tcda]

Well I've had some close ENTP friends. we worked really well together on the basis that they were slightly more imaginative and I was slightly more "grounded" and we could get into a loop of constructive work (them throwing up ideas me refining them). So I agree with much of what was said.

 

[proximo]

I very much value action over speculation and "pie in the sky". My ideas might come out of left field. They might be unusual or crazy even. But the point is, I don't express a desire or intention unless i intend to make it real.

In fact, I often use this in order to spur myself onto action. If I have an idea that I particularly want to realise, the best way to make sure I do is to tell someone I intend to do it. Then I have to do it.

I think there's a difference between "just an idea" and "a plan". When I have a plan, it almost always comes to fruition in some way or another. I'm not an INTP. I'm not interested in just reading about things in books and saying "yes, that's interesting!"

I want to make things happen, and do things for real. That's what I do.

 

[INTPness]

Well there is one trick. We are usually the most calm people around so it is not really obvious how much we are out of touch with reality. Also J helps in covering up the mess in our heads. But beneath the skin we are very similar to Ne-doms. That is why Ne and Ni are considered to be a good romantic match in the first place. A number of people thought that I just a little bit weird when they meet me but only when they saw some of my traits they actually realized with who they are dealing with.


I often cross the road then it is red light on. Which is because I don't watch around me most of the time. Also I am almost completly incapable of doing anything practical unless it trully simple. I can walk and walk without noticing and remembering anything. I mean I pass 10 blocks in a state of daydreaming.


I don't mind wearing one orange and one black sock.
For the most part I don't enjoy in eating food since for some reason I simply can't percive it in that way. So for lunch I can have tuna ,cookies, olives , popcorn, lettuce and a glass of milk. I mean sometimes I simply don't want to waste much time on this so simply grab what I have. Also I don't mix any of those since I have to finnish one grocery before I move to to the next one.
Even if that means eating eggs or caned fish witout any bread.
I mean I can do that but I have to do that willingly.



Once I discovered that someone cut down a tree that you could see throughout my room's window when I was a kid so Asked my father what happened. He told to me that they removed it 2 years ago. You can kill me but I usually don't notice this kinds of things. Neither to I really try to be honest. Also once I wanted to hit one guy with a snowball directly to his head so I prepared an ambush. However the only person I actually hit was my literature teacher. (directly in the head)However since it was from an ambush I managed to run away without anyone seeing me.


Many people said to me that watching me from affar how I behave can be quite comical. While I am not trying to be comical it is just that it turns out that way. So just because someone looks business-like from affar that does not mean that he/she is really like that.

That's a great explanation. I always thought that about INTJ's, but wasn't positive if they felt similar to Ne-doms on the inside. Most people just see the Te and think that they are smart and a little overly aggressive. My INTJ grandfather was an engineer. People kind of feared him at work. I'd go into work with him and hang out in the background sometimes. I could intuit that some of his co-workers respected him greatly, while others thought he was extremely smart, but a little strange. Before going to work, he would say things like, "It's time to go kick some ass. I'll see you in 9 hours." But, when he came home, he wasn't very good at practical things. It was a funny dichotomy.

By the way, how do them olives taste with cookies?

 

[Lady_X]

Well there is one trick. We are usually the most calm people around so it is not really obvious how much we are out of touch with reality. Also J helps in covering up the mess in our heads. But beneath the skin we are very similar to Ne-doms. That is why Ne and Ni are considered to be a good romantic match in the first place. A number of people thought that I just a little bit weird when they meet me but only when they saw some of my traits they actually realized with who they are dealing with.


I often cross the road then it is red light on. Which is because I don't watch around me most of the time. Also I am almost completly incapable of doing anything practical unless it trully simple. I can walk and walk without noticing and remembering anything. I mean I pass 10 blocks in a state of daydreaming.


I don't mind wearing one orange and one black sock.
For the most part I don't enjoy in eating food since for some reason I simply can't percive it in that way. So for lunch I can have tuna ,cookies, olives , popcorn, lettuce and a glass of milk. I mean sometimes I simply don't want to waste much time on this so simply grab what I have. Also I don't mix any of those since I have to finnish one grocery before I move to to the next one.
Even if that means eating eggs or caned fish witout any bread.
I mean I can do that but I have to do that willingly.



Once I discovered that someone cut down a tree that you could see throughout my room's window when I was a kid so Asked my father what happened. He told to me that they removed it 2 years ago. You can kill me but I usually don't notice this kinds of things. Neither to I really try to be honest. Also once I wanted to hit one guy with a snowball directly to his head so I prepared an ambush. However the only person I actually hit was my literature teacher. (directly in the head)However since it was from an ambush I managed to run away without anyone seeing me.


Many people said to me that watching me from affar how I behave can be quite comical. While I am not trying to be comical it is just that it turns out that way. So just because someone looks business-like from affar that does not mean that he/she is really like that.

yep...that's hilarious. i suck at details too unless it's something creative i'm working on.

but yeah...i don't know how many times i have been driving for who knows how long and then all of a sudden oh wtf....where am i? and i can't be bothered with the production of eating. it's great if it's going out with someone...or the occasional preparing something for someone...but...it's just such a production too many times a day every day...it bores me....i love to eat yummy stuff but....i'm totally lazy about it....and i could walk into the bathroom 100 times before noticing the mirror needed to be cleaned. i like my place clean...i really do but...it just takes me awhile before i notice stuff.

 

[INTPness]

and i can't be bothered with the production of eating. it's great if it's going out with someone...or the occasional preparing something for someone...but...it's just such a production too many times a day every day...it bores me....i love to eat yummy stuff but....i'm totally lazy about it....

Interesting you say this. I love food, but to spend an hour cooking, 10 minutes eating, and then 30 more minutes cleaning ( x 3 every day) is rough! The only time I like to cook is if it's going to produce enough food to last several days. Crock pots! Don't forget the plastic liner, then the amount of cleaning is almost zero.

 

[sculpting]

Well it's not just "fitting in" she actually fits in pretty well, she is interesting and kind. It's figuring what to do with her life, actually doing anything with it, getting a job, doing something productive. She did graduate from college and has many qualities that I think are sellable. She told me she always feels way behind her peers, like everyone else knows what to do and she has to catch up later. Maybe she has other issues I don't know about but its an interesting study in "N that is too high."

From the perspective of the emo-neurotic-ESTJ like ENFP :

This and even INTPness's earlier enfp sound like lots of NeFi, but maybe not a real well developed Te to help ground in the day to day details and follow through on plans.

Theoretically if an Ne-dom has tons of Ne, but a poor judging functions, they live in the moment and never make a choice-thus seem very silly, spastic and flighty. Like me and the chicken thread or the silly young ENTPs here. It's fun.

Combine with a bit of overdevelopment of the tert or poor development of both tert and aux-and they cant figure out which choice to make. They flip between the two judging functions. (I do this sometimes. I will pick the logical choice, but feel bad later as I realize it had a negative impact on another. As of late, I having been making more value based choices-but recognizing the negative impact they have in terms of productivity.)

But most important I would argue-is the development of Si. Even with a crazy ass, hyperactive Ne-if you balance with Si, it gives you guidance about what has worked well in the past, what has not, and gives some context to the "Ne potentials". I may have a 1000 ideas, but I can pisk the 3 that have the most potential-or recognize if I am picking a poor choice. (but yeah not with emo. EMO FAIL.)

For instance, my crazy entp tried to tell me I needed to purchase platinum rings as investments. Technically there may be logical validity in this plan-but in the context of my particular situation-it is not a good plan. I think this is where Si helps out some.

I chatted with my entp about this-she and I both note it is easy to watch others and learn the XeSi rules. But to learn XiSi rules, you actually have to practice I think. ENTPs debate to learn how to deploy the Ti rules and build an Si library of contexts. I'd guess maybe enfps Fi connect and externalize their Fi judgments to accomplish the same goal. But yeah, just guesses and observations. i dunno.

 

[Virtual ghost]

By the way, how do them olives taste with cookies?

I am sorry but I wasn't paying attantion to that. Especially since the goal was simply to put something in my stomach.