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  1. #41
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    For example, I gave my INTP boss a bottle of wine for his birthday and he handed it to someone for a Silent Auction right in front of me.
    :yim_rolling_on_the_


    He probably thought...how could this bottle be turned into a utility? Dont think I need this for anything..why dont I convert it into money-value somehow.if I benefit from the auction..and why not give it away if it serves no purpose to me..maybe giving the gift will help me politically.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #42
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It was a cut and paste quote. IRL, I'd probably have said prick.


    I have observed the tendency of NTs to be able to put off processing emotions until a later time and I consider it a valuable asset in times of crisis. I do not agree that this trait necessarily translates into a diminished emotional impact. I think that the repressed feelings, if not dealt with in a healthy period of time will lead to emotional/mental health problems. I suspect it is a major contributor to the depression that many INTs appear to suffer from. It also seems more prevalent among males which correlates with the social oppression of emotional expression in our culture.

    Fs, OTOH, are more likely to be emotional about the situation at first (which is definitely a short-term liability), but work though it, get it out of their system, and have minimal long-term negative effects.


    A agree with this, but I suspect that it may be difficult for some folks to calibrate what constitutes one or the other to the particular audience they are working with.

    I can be totally direct and stand my ground and still be polite. The person may get annoyed because my request has inconvenienced them, but it usually gets me passed off to a person who can help me (and/or is simply willing to help me) instead of offending the person into being really upset and causing retaliation and resistance.

    If being right is what really matters to you in life, and it makes you feel validated when people retaliate against you, then, by all means, to thy ownself be true. If you want to get things done and not face resistance at every turn, calibrate your level of assertiveness for your audience. Humor people a little, use the tools for getting along that things like a great brain and MBTI give you. It's win win. They don't have a crappy day, and you get what you want.
    A truly self-assured person does not seek validation from other people by practicing certain behavior. He derives his sense of worth from within through attunement with the higher purpose.

    From the standpoint of my personal validation, it doesnt matter how they react to me.

    I dont think I should have to bend over backwards to appease their fancies. And I am quite tired of FJs interpreting completely neutral, impersonal behavior as something pejorative.

    Jae Rae had a good example. The INTP who gave away the bottle he received as his birthday present was behaving in a completely neutral and impersonal fashion. He simply saw no utility for the gift he received, so he got rid of it. Yet, I bet there were many who thought he was well aware of the FJ ritual in regards to present-giving and specifically did what he did to make them feel in a certain way.

    And no matter what you do to explain to them that you dont see it the way they do, they still chant the same cant. So I say..it is the motives that determine the moral goodness of an act, but this seems to have no meaning to them either. It doesnt matter if you meant well or wicked, it only matters that you LOOK like you meant one or the other. Or in other words, your mindset is simply irrelevant, it only matters that you give them the ritual that they associate with goodness. Like accepting the present or giving to the poor. They could care less if you think about how much you hate the person you're giving the gift to whilst doing it, or how you're scheming about what political implications your act of giving to the poor will carry, how the popularity you'll win is going to bestow the power upon you to destroy one of your political enemies.

    For such FJs, it simply does not matter whats going on inside of you, its all about the ritual that they want to see.

    And with retaliation you're radically over-dramatizing the situation. Most of those FJs however frivolous and finicky tend not to bother pursuing their vendetta against you for something they thought slightly impolite. They'd pay lip service to you first pretending they have changed their course in your favor, and then carry on doing what they initially wanted to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It Humor people a little, use the tools for getting along that things like a great brain and MBTI give you. It's win win. They don't have a crappy day, and you get what you want.
    Yes, just humor people. Dont think through what you do, just give them whatever they want.

    Notice how this leads to the starkest nihilism your mind can conjure? How FJs have no ethic, no personal values, its all hocus-pocus. They dont think about what is truly good or evil, they just call whatever people like good and whatever people dislike evil.

    So if people liked human sacrifice and rape you'd be compelled to call it good.

    Just like in Russia, first they worshipped the Tsar and the Christian God, this is what they called good, then the communists came and preached a radically different code of ethic and then all of a sudden the communist manifesto and not the Bible is the foundation for the greatest possible ethical good.

    So in conclusion, I see no reason for me to prostitute my ethic for their vainglory. The misunderstanding attests to their short-comings, not mine.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #43
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    i constantly hold back what i want to say. the only time i am pretty forward and assertive is when i feel responsible or have a large stake in the matter at hand. when what i do say has zero effect i'll usually just not say anything as its a waste of my energy.

    i think my only real problem being overly assertive is when i'm put in charge of something where i'm familiar w/ all the details and totally confident of my position. i become incredibly impatient w/ people who are slower or ineffective. i rarely offer encouraging remarks but point out everything that falls short of perfect. recently i've learned to just be a little less uptight in these rare situations so i don't stress others out but yeah, the tendency is definitely there.

  4. #44
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I have observed the tendency of NTs to be able to put off processing emotions until a later time and I consider it a valuable asset in times of crisis. I do not agree that this trait necessarily translates into a diminished emotional impact. I think that the repressed feelings, if not dealt with in a healthy period of time will lead to emotional/mental health problems. I suspect it is a major contributor to the depression that many INTs appear to suffer from. It also seems more prevalent among males which correlates with the social oppression of emotional expression in our culture.
    This seems to show that too much repression of emotion will get you in trouble, but even with this taken in account Fs tend to suffer from emotional downturns more than Ts. This is very much consistent with the proposition that detachment does lessen the impact of emotions. If you take a myriad of them with a low impact, they will eventually add up. But thats much less likely to hurt you than a direct access to negative emotion as we get with Fs.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #45
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    A truly self-assured person does not seek validation from other people by practicing certain behavior. He derives his sense of worth from within through attunement with the higher purpose.

    From the standpoint of my personal validation, it doesnt matter how they react to me.

    I dont think I should have to bend over backwards to appease their fancies. And I am quite tired of FJs interpreting completely neutral, impersonal behavior as something pejorative.

    Jae Rae had a good example. The INTP who gave away the bottle he received as his birthday present was behaving in a completely neutral and impersonal fashion. He simply saw no utility for the gift he received, so he got rid of it. Yet, I bet there were many who thought he was well aware of the FJ ritual in regards to present-giving and specifically did what he did to make them feel in a certain way.
    What he did was not a horrible thing, but it was stupid unless his purpose was to offend her or hanging onto the wine would have caused himself or someone close to him to drop back into destructive alcoholism. It would have taken very little effort for him to regift the wine in a social setting where Jea Rae would not have been present. Whether or not people should be hurt by that kind of thing, they usually are and it is very impractical to ignore the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing
    And no matter what you do to explain to them that you dont see it the way they do, they still chant the same cant. So I say..it is the motives that determine the moral goodness of an act, but this seems to have no meaning to them either. It doesnt matter if you meant well or wicked, it only matters that you LOOK like you meant one or the other. Or in other words, your mindset is simply irrelevant, it only matters that you give them the ritual that they associate with goodness. Like accepting the present or giving to the poor. They could care less if you think about how much you hate the person you're giving the gift to whilst doing it, or how you're scheming about what political implications your act of giving to the poor will carry, how the popularity you'll win is going to bestow the power upon you to destroy one of your political enemies.


    For such FJs, it simply does not matter whats going on inside of you, its all about the ritual that they want to see.
    I disagree. It does matter to them, but especially to SFJs they cannot divorce the motive from the action. They see things more simply than that. If your behavior is good, your motives must be good. It is not that they do not care, they just can't see it. They project their own mindset onto others and if they were doing a particular act, it would be with good intent, so they assume the same of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    And with retaliation you're radically over-dramatizing the situation. Most of those FJs however frivolous and finicky tend not to bother pursuing their vendetta against you for something they thought slightly impolite. They'd pay lip service to you first pretending they have changed their course in your favor, and then carry on doing what they initially wanted to do.
    I'm not talking about a sustained major vendetta in most situations. I'm talking about a word or two of negative gossip or a paper 'accidentally' misplaced or a request 'forgotten' or information that might have been helpful to you not volunteered. Little things that do not really take effort on their part one way or the other, but that can cause real problems or at least major inconveniences for you. You will experience this as incompetencies and they might get a mild reprimand from their employer, but they will not get fired and they know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing
    Yes, just humor people. Dont think through what you do, just give them whatever they want.

    Notice how this leads to the starkest nihilism your mind can conjure? How FJs have no ethic, no personal values, its all hocus-pocus. They dont think about what is truly good or evil, they just call whatever people like good and whatever people dislike evil.

    So if people liked human sacrifice and rape you'd be compelled to call it good.

    Just like in Russia, first they worshipped the Tsar and the Christian God, this is what they called good, then the communists came and preached a radically different code of ethic and then all of a sudden the communist manifesto and not the Bible is the foundation for the greatest possible ethical good.
    Jeez I'm feeling really bummed about my over-dramatizing earlier because the above is totally what I'm advocating when I suggest humoring people by adjusting your communication style to their needs.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #46
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    This seems to show that too much repression of emotion will get you in trouble, but even with this taken in account Fs tend to suffer from emotional downturns more than Ts. This is very much consistent with the proposition that detachment does lessen the impact of emotions. If you take a myriad of them with a low impact, they will eventually add up. But thats much less likely to hurt you than a direct access to negative emotion as we get with Fs.
    You don't see a trend of depressive INT males in comparison with women and other types? Do you think being really upset for a few hours or days and having frequent little upsets is worse than a sustained major depression, especially considering that for every little upset there is probably at least half a warm-fuzzie to be had because they are more open to positive emotions as well as negative and that the empathic nature can cause a person to feel really good on another person's behalf just because they observe something good happening for someone else?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #47
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You don't see a trend of depressive INT males in comparison with women and other types? Do you think being really upset for a few hours or days and having frequent little upsets is worse than a sustained major depression, especially considering that for every little upset there is probably at least half a warm-fuzzie to be had because they are more open to positive emotions as well as negative and that the empathic nature can cause a person to feel really good on another person's behalf just because they observe something good happening for someone else?
    Appears to me that those INTs are not really depressed, they are confusing this for something else. They seem to have a low energy level that parallels behavior of those who are depressed, yet what they are experiencing is a different matter.

    The difference between downing Fs and downing Ts is that the former are ruled by their feelings the latter are not. The latter are in a downturn because things dont seem to be favorable to them based on their T standard, as soon as that would change, they'd fire back up. Yet Fs are in a downturn because their position is unsatisfactory based on an F standard. Ts dont need to work through their feelings, they just need to attain what their impersonal standard requires. Yet Fs do indeed need to work through their feelings in order to alleviate the downturn.

    *I agree what what Jae Rae's manager did was impractical as such behaviors could burn bridges which otherwise could be utilized to our advantage.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #48
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Appears to me that those INTs are not really depressed, they are confusing this for something else. They seem to have a low energy level that parallels behavior of those who are depressed, yet what they are experiencing is a different matter.

    The difference between downing Fs and downing Ts is that the former are ruled by their feelings the latter are not. The latter are in a downturn because things dont seem to be favorable to them based on their T standard, as soon as that would change, they'd fire back up. Yet Fs are in a downturn because their position is unsatisfactory based on an F standard. Ts dont need to work through their feelings, they just need to attain what their impersonal standard requires. Yet Fs do indeed need to work through their feelings in order to alleviate the downturn.
    I disagree with your theory. My experiences and observations tell me differently, but the Ts will know better than I if and how they experience feelings and depression.

    And, to make a sort of side point, Fs, due to their values might be more likely to concentrate on their feelings and the feelings of others, but I would remind you that Feeling in MBTI theory does not equal emotion or emotionalism.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #49
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Humor people a little, use the tools for getting along that things like a great brain and MBTI give you. It's win win. They don't have a crappy day, and you get what you want.
    Couldn't agree more.

  10. #50
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I disagree with your theory. My experiences and observations tell me differently, but the Ts will know better than I if and how they experience feelings and depression.

    And, to make a sort of side point, Fs, due to their values might be more likely to concentrate on their feelings and the feelings of others, but I would remind you that Feeling in MBTI theory does not equal emotion or emotionalism.

    About MBTI theory, you're certainly correct. There the 'functions' have almost nothing to do with any entity in philosophy of mind as most of it is merely elaborate hocus-pocus. However, the way Jung used the word Feeling in his theory of types is consistent with most notions of emotion or emotivism we could concoct. They seem to be entwined and are often the same essence, for the very least the two are isomorphic.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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