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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    He does not deal with the outer world not because he lacks the firmness but because he is simply not interested in it. The more internally focused a person is the less he can be bothered with pesky external errands. Js enjoy more and perform better at errands because their goal-setting orients around the external world. Your anecdotal post had nothing to do with the posed question as you seem to have confused Jness(or decisiveness with the external world) for firmness of mind.
    My point is that my husband is absolutely not like you describe NTs as being when it comes to conflict and it is no different when he really cares about a situation, because trust me, he does care about our kids' education and appreciates that I take those situations on.

    He hates conflict and all the drama and bad feelings that frequently go along with it. It is highly unpleasant to him, much more so than it is to me. He also genuinely cares about the feelings of others, not so much that he goes out of his way to make people feel good (because he doesn't do that with people outside the family) but in that he dislikes hurting people or making them feel bad. He is a kind person. He treats everyone with courtesy and respect because it is a part of his personal system of ethics to do so and, I suspect, because life just works better that way.

    I think that, regardless of your type, if your true nature is asshole, it is definitely in your best interest to hide it. People do not like being treated inconsiderately and tend to retaliate (sometimes covertly, as you have observed) when they are.
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  2. #22
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My point is that my husband is absolutely not like you describe NTs as being when it comes to conflict and it is no different when he really cares about a situation, because trust me, he does care about our kids' education and appreciates that I take those situations on.

    He hates conflict and all the drama and bad feelings that frequently go along with it. It is highly unpleasant to him, much more so than it is to me. He also genuinely cares about the feelings of others, not so much that he goes out of his way to make people feel good (because he doesn't do that with people outside the family) but in that he dislikes hurting people or making them feel bad. He is a kind person. He treats everyone with courtesy and respect because it is a part of his personal system of ethics to do so and, I suspect, because life just works better that way.

    I think that, regardless of your type, if your true nature is asshole, it is definitely in your best interest to hide it. People do not like being treated inconsiderately and tend to retaliate (sometimes covertly, as you have observed) when they are.
    Define "asshole". (I assure you I'm not just being smarmy and that I have reasons for requesting this definition.)

  3. #23
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Define "asshole". (I assure you I'm not just being smarmy and that I have reasons for requesting this definition.)
    For our purposes here, I'll go with the second entry in the Urban Dictionary "someone being arrogant, rude, obnoxious, or just a total dickhead...."
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #24
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    For our purposes here, I'll go with the second entry in the Urban Dictionary "someone being arrogant, rude, obnoxious, or just a total dickhead...."
    Gotcha. (You have successfully circumvented my Devil's-Advocate-playing.)

  5. #25
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My point is that my husband is absolutely not like you describe NTs as being when it comes to conflict and it is no different when he really cares about a situation, because trust me, he does care about our kids' education and appreciates that I take those situations on.

    He hates conflict and all the drama and bad feelings that frequently go along with it. It is highly unpleasant to him, much more so than it is to me. He also genuinely cares about the feelings of others, not so much that he goes out of his way to make people feel good (because he doesn't do that with people outside the family) but in that he dislikes hurting people or making them feel bad. He is a kind person. He treats everyone with courtesy and respect because it is a part of his personal system of ethics to do so and, I suspect, because life just works better that way.

    I think that, regardless of your type, if your true nature is asshole, it is definitely in your best interest to hide it. People do not like being treated inconsiderately and tend to retaliate (sometimes covertly, as you have observed) when they are.
    This is true of my husband as well. Being T doesn't mean you are absolutely tuned out to how your behavior affects others.
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  6. #26
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    For our purposes here, I'll go with the second entry in the Urban Dictionary "someone being arrogant, rude, obnoxious, or just a total dickhead...."
    Goodness! You said the "d" word!
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  7. #27
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    No, I have no problems with being overly assertive at all. I can do it any time I like, no problem.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    Goodness! You said the "d" word!
    That's our cafe, being so assertive!

    I'm still confused over the logical incongruence between equating a**** with d****. (As far as mechanical function goes, aren't they, like, opposites?)
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    For example, your SFJ manager isnt being clear on you about whether you work next, or you have a job. You dont care about him sugar-coating the truth, you just want the answer. So he avoids your questions and tries to make it all relative, yet you pin him in to the point where he cant slide anywhere else. And is forced to go nowhere but to give you a straight answer if he likes it or not. But still does not because truth is just too ugly for him, so he tells you what you want to hear..that you have your hours this week..than goes behind your back a few days later to cut them back...

    Yet maybe if you played along the game of his gentle and indirect ways of communication..maybe then he'd be more likely to give you what you want...

    So thats an example of how being perceived as overly assertive can discourage certain people from cooperating with you.
    Well, it seems pretty clear to me that you'd be more likely to achieve an outcome you want when you communicate at the other persons' level, if you will. I mean, I think that goes across the board with everyone -- people want to be understood. Just as you're frustrated that he isn't amenable to your approaches, he's probably equally frustrated that you're being...blunt/stubborn/whatever. It's learning to get along with various types of people and various personalities, and there's give and take with everyone, for really effective communication.

    I don't personally think it's a 'game' for the other person, I think it's probably a combo of his personality, and how he views the most 'constructive' way to deal with his employees -I think that's just who he is. And I'm not saying I think his approach is a particularly good one. BUT. You can either roll with it, accept it, and figure out a way to more effectively communicate with him, *given how he is*, or keep communicating as you are, without making any tweaks, and thereby getting the same [lack of] results. I also don't have any idea of the hierarchy within your company, but isn't it possible the manager is avoiding a direct answer because he has higher-ups and he doesn't feel he's in the position to be 'direct' with you?

    I guess I see so much indirectness in my job..I see it as coming with the territory. I can either get worked up about it, or I can try to work with it and not fight it so much. I personally can be quite assertive on the job, but I also recognize that I need to 'adjust' my communication depending on the person I'm speaking to; because everyone is different, and I appreciate that. Communicating exactly the same way with every person you come in contact with is not going to yield the same results. Obviously. So, if you want certain results, or you want certain outcomes on the job, then I think you'll have to adjust your communication style to a certain degree. Not necessarily the message, but the style/approach.
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  10. #30
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My point is that my husband is absolutely not like you describe NTs as being when it comes to conflict and it is no different when he really cares about a situation, because trust me, he does care about our kids' education and appreciates that I take those situations on.

    He hates conflict and all the drama and bad feelings that frequently go along with it. It is highly unpleasant to him, much more so than it is to me. He also genuinely cares about the feelings of others, not so much that he goes out of his way to make people feel good (because he doesn't do that with people outside the family) but in that he dislikes hurting people or making them feel bad. He is a kind person. He treats everyone with courtesy and respect because it is a part of his personal system of ethics to do so and, I suspect, because life just works better that way.

    I think that, regardless of your type, if your true nature is asshole, it is definitely in your best interest to hide it. People do not like being treated inconsiderately and tend to retaliate (sometimes covertly, as you have observed) when they are.
    Yes Ts do act in a similar fashion Fs tend to act on ordinary basis when involved in close associations. However, they are still much less emotionally affected. An NT in an intense crisis would behave in a similar fashion described by Eileen in our neighboring thread, yet Fs would likely be affected physically. Fs would be forced to work through their feelings almost immediately, whilst the T will be able to put them off for a great extent of time. You could say what good is putting them off if you will have to process them sooner or later? The catch here is that by the time you get around to process them, they will much diminish in impact. This renders Ts less susceptible to be harmed emotionally than Fs. Though far from entirely immune.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think that, regardless of your type, if your true nature is asshole, it is definitely in your best interest to hide it. People do not like being treated inconsiderately and tend to retaliate (sometimes covertly, as you have observed) when they are.
    You can equate aggressiveness with asshole, though not assertiveness. As Maverick's claim has much merit. An aggressive person is one who is intentionally pejorative, the assertive is one who merely stands his ground.

    Insecure people often tend to mistake assertiveness for aggressiveness. My thread was precisely about this. It is exactly claims of the ilk you have just made that I've contested here. Namely that it is a mistake to equate assertiveness with aggression and therefore retaliation that may be warranted for aggressiveness is not warranted in response to assertive behavior.
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