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  1. #11
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    I see. I kinda hear what you're sayin', Seahorse, maybe I think it's not exactly assertiveness, but a need for cognition and information. I had a boss what was ESTJ to the irritating max. My assertiveness only got me into trouble when I wanted answers to things and she couldn't provide them because we didn't think the same way. I ended up offending her bigtime. While I saw the whole thing as simply an exchange of ideas, she saw it as a power game that was wrapped up in territorial dispute. Similar to your experience, my desire for information (whether through debate or not) blinds me to the other issues and sensitivities that are floating around that other losers get bogged down by. LOL.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I dunno, I see just as many passive INTPs who hate to engage in conflict, so they are NOT assertive ... and just feel bad inside because they are violating their own principles because they're not standing up for themselves and the truth they perceive.

    So usually they just avoid interaction when possible, to avoid the compromise.

    So I think trying to pin it down to an archetype or even one type might be a mistake.
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  3. #13
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Going by what information you've provided, I don't think this is SFJ unwillingness to face the truth.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your boss isn't committing to what your hours are going to be next week. Maybe they aren't committing because they aren't sure of the final schedule, not because of some passive aggressive streak. It would be better communication if they just told you that the schedule hasn't been finalized or whatever reason it may be, but from my experience this was a fairly common thing. I remember when I worked at Starbucks, the schedule was based on some calculation of how busy the store was and the managers where alloted X amount of hours per week. I also remember that if a manager didn't go over their alloted hours they'd get a bonus. I used to have bosses repeatedly switch my shift so much that I just ended up preferring them putting up the schedule at the final minute when I knew changes would be few so I knew how to schedule my free time. Is there an employee resource manual at your job that tells you how far in advance the manager is supposed to let you know of your schedule?

    Basically what I'm saying is, if you're working in retail this is the nature of the beast. I don't think it's a SF Grand Truth Hoax or NT Bull Assertiveness. Just sounds like poor communication to me.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    I don't think that INTPs are particularly assertive. ...xNTPs on the other hand, rather than being assertive, seem more blunt and oblivious to what might "upset" someone.
    Yes. Indirect action, direct or literal conversation.

    When this happens, I always pressure the FJ into saying the direct truth by insisting that I couldn't care less about the emotional consequences, I just want to know the truth.
    I did the same Monday night. A woman, apparently an ESFJ, disagreed with speculation of mine but only did so with visible reluctance. "No, I appreciate the counterpoint," I told her.

  5. #15
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    PinkPiranha makes a point I wished to say myself. I don't think that INTPs are particularly assertive. Assertiveness, to me, has always appeared to be an xxTJ trait, though particularly xNTJ, taking into consideration the fact that xSTJs are more likely to "soften" their assertiveness for sake of etiquette, or something along those lines.

    xNTPs on the other hand, rather than being assertive, seem more blunt and oblivious to what might "upset" someone. I, for instance, am rather unassertive, but I am EXTREMELY blunt. I pay absolutely no attention whatsoever to social conventions, whether this be intentional or unintentional (occasionally a mix of both). I rarely realize how something I say could be perceived as even remotely unkind.

    This is the problem I have with xxFJs, especially xSFJs. Whenever speaking with an FJ, I always notice how hesitant they are to directly say what is on their minds, or the truth, for the mere sake of hoping that nobody is "hurt." When this happens, I always pressure the FJ into saying the direct truth by insisting that I couldn't care less about the emotional consequences, I just want to know the truth. Still, they always seem to find ways to never directly state it. They always get very uncomfortable, and usually try to "fluff up" their statements, and try to avoid talking about the subject matter.

    Similarly, even if they do not openly express it, whenever I say something considered to be socially unacceptable, I often can sense how horrified the FJs are. This, of course, applies not to all FJs. xNFJs can occasionally have their moments of "bluntness," however, the cause is, I think, different from the cause of bluntness in INTPs and ENTPs.

    I shouldnt have narrowed it down to assertiveness in the colloquial sense of the word. The way you use blunt would have been part of my definition of assertiveness.

    In fact, I'd just scratch assertiveness and replace it with 'firmness of mind'---now, that, almost indisputably, is a predominantly Thinking-oriented trait.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I don't know about other Ts or Fs but I am much more assertive than my INTP husband and I have, at times, had to come out and say to him, "Listen, I don't care either way what you decide. I just need to know what to expect and what you want to do so I can plan around it." He can have a tendency to not want to commit to a course of action, then, at the last minute, I'm supposed to be ready to take off and do something. I don't do so well with that. I really need to know what to expect or it really messes with me.

    I handle nearly all conflicts that we encounter with the outside world. If we get an incorrect bill, I handle it. We have to return something to the store, I handle it. Child is having a problem at school, I handle it. He is the lover and I am the fighter.

    He is better about being firm with the kids than I am, though, and if he observes them disrespecting me, he is very quick to call them on it.
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  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't know about other Ts or Fs but I am much more assertive than my INTP husband and I have, at times, had to come out and say to him, "Listen, I don't care either way what you decide. I just need to know what to expect and what you want to do so I can plan around it." He can have a tendency to not want to commit to a course of action, then, at the last minute, I'm supposed to be ready to take off and do something. I don't do so well with that. I really need to know what to expect or it really messes with me.

    I handle nearly all conflicts that we encounter with the outside world. If we get an incorrect bill, I handle it. We have to return something to the store, I handle it. Child is having a problem at school, I handle it. He is the lover and I am the fighter.

    He is better about being firm with the kids than I am, though, and if he observes them disrespecting me, he is very quick to call them on it.

    He does not deal with the outer world not because he lacks the firmness but because he is simply not interested in it. The more internally focused a person is the less he can be bothered with pesky external errands. Js enjoy more and perform better at errands because their goal-setting orients around the external world. Your anecdotal post had nothing to do with the posed question as you seem to have confused Jness(or decisiveness with the external world) for firmness of mind.
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  8. #18
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    Assertiveness is nearly never a problem. Aggressiveness is.

    When you're being assertive, you're holding your ground and giving your opinion without attacking the other person. When you're aggressive, you attack at the same time.

    So, have I had problems with being "overly assertive"? Hey, I'm fine, it's the rest of the world that is subdued.

    An INTP buddy says it's "over the top". Assertiveness is both a function of Extraversion and Low Agreeableness, ExTx in the MBTI. Add in some J in there for tenacity in combat.

    It has brought me many positive things. It is the most useful in a leadership role of course. I haven't really had problems with it.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    NTs do you relate to this problem of mine. Especially INTPs and ENTJs...

    Do you consistently find having to hold your true nature back because people tend not to be cooperative when you function in a way that is most comfortable to you. Namely, by virtue of the radical T approach to matters?
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Well..i notice that feeling types..especially SFs tend to buckle and feign cooperation..than go behind my back..

    I do think however assertiveness has much to do with being a T..especially NT..as this makes us less concerned with harmony, thus upsetting others becomes less significant of a concern. With that being said we'd be in a better position to drive the point home.
    I can't speak for every ENTP, but I don't think I'm overtly assertive in the meaning of blunt / direct / literal in the way of an INTJ and ENTJ.

    I'm not confrontational by nature, and am more likely to rather try figure out what matters to someone, and put my points in a way I think they can accept, if I wish for cooperation in some affair. Because ultimately, I do not see value in being assertive if it does not generate the desired results?

    So a form of covert assertiveness if you wish. Or Machiavellinism, as my INTP has it. *chuckles*

    The choice of words matters to me to put the points across, but I'm not likely to deliver it harshly, though I may think it in very precise terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    xNTPs on the other hand, rather than being assertive, seem more blunt and oblivious to what might "upset" someone. I, for instance, am rather unassertive, but I am EXTREMELY blunt. I pay absolutely no attention whatsoever to social conventions, whether this be intentional or unintentional (occasionally a mix of both). I rarely realize how something I say could be perceived as even remotely unkind.
    .. the cause is, I think, different from the cause of bluntness in INTPs and ENTPs.
    * If I recall the MBTI types correctly, ENTPs were second best in the spectrum at reading/understanding people? If so, the oblivious comment would not apply; I may say that they place a higher priority on thought vs others' feelings in a debate though, and may choose to ignore any hurt feelings in pursuit of an argument.

  10. #20
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I'm not really overly assertive. I'm more reactionary than assertive - I get extremely confrontational if anybody tries to be assertive with me, but I have no desire to tell others what to do.

    There have been some exceptions to this but only in environments where I feel welcomed to do so, and these were always either soccer fields of biking races. I would be lost in a "leadership" position in anything else, I'm just too used to do my own thing. The best I could do there is trying to get people revved up and think that what I want them to do is just fantastic and an awesome experience and they'll like doing it - I feel like if I'm too critical I get in a bad mood myself and I don't want that to happen.

    However I'm really an ass to people whose opinion of me I don't care about and that try to be "assertive", unless they have somehow proven that they have better competence in the matter.

    If somebody is chit-chatting and not telling me the truth just to be nice, I tell them "Fine, come back when you want to, I'll do something else in the meanwhile" and go back to some other activity.

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