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Thread: developing Fi

  1. #41
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I see. from my way of functioning it is that we should respect each other, and that includes feelings, so if someone who is your friend is in a bad way, the nature of the relationship implies that you have an obligation to try to make them feel better.
    Hehe, that's interesting...I actually do have a sense of obligation with friends and loved ones, but it is constructed empathically, in myself. It's not the relationship that makes me do it (at least not primarily), it's the way I feel about the people in question that makes me tend to their feelings (and once I've chosen or those take root, you end up with Fi loyalty). Often the end result will be the same for Fe users and Fi users, but in the case of family for example, the difference can become more obvious with Fe users feeling the pull of family ties more strongly than Fi users do. After all you don't choose your family and choosing (internal, independent) is a large part of Fi.

    But then if they are not reciprocating but instead just keep expressing to you their feelings without engaging with constructive suggestions, then they are just being self-indulgent and abusing my sense of obligation.
    It's an act of trust and a way to show you they value you/how much you mean to them. Even if the emotions expressed are negative. They're not trying to blame or expect you to make everything better magically. Maybe just acknowledge their feelings or show that you understand? Just talk with them, they want to explore the feeling with you (thoroughly), they don't necessarily expect a fix or an endpoint. Like Uumlau said, there really is no task at hand. It's like Ti vs. Te.

    Of course there's a point at which regardless of the kind of feeling you use, you start to indulge in whining. A good Fi user will realise when they start to burden you with their emo spewing or at least empathise with your position.

  2. #42
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I agree with your view on drugs, but alcohol tends to bring out my Fe more than anything else. I go into "charm" mode.
    Hmm...

    Perhaps this is because your F is Fe, while my F is Fi?

  3. #43
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Today was a good example. An INTJ friend, who has quite prominent tert Fi , sent a message saying how much he hated it today where he lives (essentially a moral judgement against the people there).
    Why did you assume this was a moral judgment of the other people? (Not being at all critical-just curious) Was this based upon other information as well, not shared here? If not, Do you feel an affiliation for those people in some way or was it just that he implied he was somehow more special than the other people, that made you feel it was a moral judgment against them?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    My first reaction was, as a result of my inferior Fe which I feel as an external force "what does this guy want from me?, what can I do? Why is he telling me this? I lived there myself so why should I feel bad for him? Why is he telling me something completely unconstructive, self-pitying and judgemental; why doesn't he just either do something about the problem, or stop whining".
    So you perceive his request (an Fi externalized request for affirmation that what he feels is okay) as a request for you to help in someway to relieve his unhappiness via an action on your part? I think is a very typical Fi-Fe miscommunication.

    But why was it "unconstructive"? How could he have communicated that he was unhappy in a way that would have felt constructive?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    But then I realized, "it's important to him, the reason I feel annoyed is becase of my inferior Fe, instead, I should consciously take control of it, and use it, to sympathize". So I texted back something encouraging, sympathetic and positive - despite the fact I didn't empathize my Fe allowed me to recognize the desire for sympathy, and to express it.
    Was this using a Ti analysis of a known logical system-your own Fe/yourself-to overcome your innate response?


    Sorry, I hope this dont come across as prying or presumptive as I very much do not intend that-I am just making guesses via my suggestions above. You managed to find the root of the biggest fight I ever had with my ex husband and also touch upon the source of a huge fight with my best friend ENTP...in two paragraphs! So I am trying to pick apart what is causing the issue.

    I would really appreciate your insight in this issue.

  4. #44
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Why did you assume this was a moral judgment of the other people? (Not being at all critical-just curious) Was this based upon other information as well, not shared here? If not, Do you feel an affiliation for those people in some way or was it just that he implied he was somehow more special than the other people, that made you feel it was a moral judgment against them?



    So you perceive his request (an Fi externalized request for affirmation that what he feels is okay) as a request for you to help in someway to relieve his unhappiness via an action on your part? I think is a very typical Fi-Fe miscommunication.

    But why was it "unconstructive"? How could he have communicated that he was unhappy in a way that would have felt constructive?



    Was this using a Ti analysis of a known logical system-your own Fe/yourself-to overcome your innate response?


    Sorry, I hope this dont come across as prying or presumptive as I very much do not intend that-I am just making guesses via my suggestions above. You managed to find the root of the biggest fight I ever had with my ex husband and also touch upon the source of a huge fight with my best friend ENTP...in two paragraphs! So I am trying to pick apart what is causing the issue.

    I would really appreciate your insight in this issue.

    Lucky I cuaght your reply just before I go to bed then.

    First let me say that Iw rote thsoe things in order to communicate how inferior Fe feels when confronted with Fi - not to say that I rationally think the other guy was "wrong" and me "right".

    1.) The reason I say it was a moral judgement is based on the longer version of what he said, and previous context.

    2.) The reason I felt obliged to help is precisely because of my inferior Fe, yes, I at first felt it as an unconscious, "external" obligation that this person was imposing upon me to help him; then I realized this was my own inferior Fe and that I should take control of it and use it to express sympathy.

    3.) I say it was unconstructive because it was simply an expression of unhappiness, about which I couldn't do anything, so I thought "why tell me". If it had been a one-off of course, I'd have concluded, "he's really upset, I should help", but because it happens fairly often, it tired my patience.

    However the fundamental MBTI related issue is that I just wouldn't text someone a message like that. I would always frame it either as a useful peice of information which the other person could use, or as a request/question, in order to justify sending it to someone else - even if deep down I just wanted to vent.

    So I would have found it more constructive if he had asked me for concrete advice, or framed it as part of a wider question, i.e. a reciprocal conversation along the lines of: "Hi. I think X about Y. What do you think about Y? Do you have any additional information which may inform my opinion?". instead of a terse "I think X about Y".

    4.) Yes, it was me using Ti to understand my own inferior Fe. Previously to knowing about MBTI, I wouldn't have been able to explain why I felt that "pressure" every time someone expressed dissatisfaction to me.

    Hope that helps.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

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  5. #45
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    3.) I say it was unconstructive because it was simply an expression of unhappiness, about which I couldn't do anything, so I thought "why tell me". If it had been a one-off of course, I'd have concluded, "he's really upset, I should help", but because it happens fairly often, it tired my patience.

    However the fundamental MBTI related issue is that I just wouldn't text someone a message like that. I would always frame it either as a useful peice of information which the other person could use, or as a request/question, in order to justify sending it to someone else - even if deep down I just wanted to vent.

    So I would have found it more constructive if he had asked me for concrete advice, or framed it as part of a wider question, i.e. a reciprocal conversation along the lines of: "Hi. I think X about Y. What do you think about Y? Do you have any additional information which may inform my opinion?". instead of a terse "I think X about Y".
    I think this makes a lot of sense, and helps teach me about Fe.

    First of all, I would assert that Fe and Fi are both about feelings and one's perception of feelings. More importantly, they're about "what you should do" with feelings. For Fi, feelings are felt. That's it. You might express how you feel or not, but that's all it is. For Fe, as you're helpfully explaining it, it's OK to express feelings, but there should be a purpose to sharing feelings. E.g, to express a feeling in an Fe way might be a request for help, or advice, or an admonishment. To Fe, the Fi mode of expression seems pointless. Why express feelings if you don't want something from someone else?

    I think this is a great way of looking at some of the Fi vs Fe "wars." Fi just expresses a feeling. Fe attributes motives and purpose to feeling. Fi thinks, "WTF? I just said what I felt." And so on. Similarly, Fe expresses a feeling, Fi replies "oh, so sorry. *hugs*," and Fe gets pissed off because Fe was asking for help, not asking for a hug.

    Does this analysis resonate with anyone?

    It suggests a potential resolution: add to one's Fi or Fe "vocabulary" as needed. If you've typed someone as Fe, and you're Fi, recognize that their expressions of feeling are attempts at direct communication, and mean more than just the feeling. If you've typed someone as Fi, and you're Fe, don't attribute motives and meaning where (usually) none exist, and the Fi user is just trying to express the feeling to vent or perhaps get some comfort/affirmation.

    You don't need to "feel" that it's the correct response ... just have it in your vocabulary, and even though it feels weird, it can result in successful communication.

    This is also on-topic for the OP. As an Fe user trying to understand Fi, understanding the Fi "vocabulary" comes first. Once you start seeing how Fi users communicate and the actual (rather hidden) purpose behind the communication, you may gain more understanding of Fi, in general, and find the same Fi in yourself.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #46
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    Hehe, that's interesting...I actually do have a sense of obligation with friends and loved ones, but it is constructed empathically, in myself. It's not the relationship that makes me do it (at least not primarily), it's the way I feel about the people in question that makes me tend to their feelings (and once I've chosen or those take root, you end up with Fi loyalty). Often the end result will be the same for Fe users and Fi users, but in the case of family for example, the difference can become more obvious with Fe users feeling the pull of family ties more strongly than Fi users do. After all you don't choose your family and choosing (internal, independent) is a large part of Fi.



    It's an act of trust and a way to show you they value you/how much you mean to them. Even if the emotions expressed are negative. They're not trying to blame or expect you to make everything better magically. Maybe just acknowledge their feelings or show that you understand? Just talk with them, they want to explore the feeling with you (thoroughly), they don't necessarily expect a fix or an endpoint. Like Uumlau said, there really is no task at hand. It's like Ti vs. Te.

    Of course there's a point at which regardless of the kind of feeling you use, you start to indulge in whining. A good Fi user will realise when they start to burden you with their emo spewing or at least empathise with your position.
    well put. i especially agree with your last sentence.

    perhaps a good Fi user also has developed his/ her Fe?
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