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Thread: developing Fi

  1. #31
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    yes, you're probably right.
    Today was a good example. An INTJ friend, who has quite prominent tert Fi , sent a message saying how much he hated it today where he lives (essentially a moral judgement against the people there).

    My first reaction was, as a result of my inferior Fe which I feel as an external force "what does this guy want from me?, what can I do? Why is he telling me this? I lived there myself so why should I feel bad for him? Why is he telling me something completely unconstructive, self-pitying and judgemental; why doesn't he just either do something about the problem, or stop whining".

    But then I realized, "it's important to him, the reason I feel annoyed is becase of my inferior Fe, instead, I should consciously take control of it, and use it, to sympathize". So I texted back something encouraging, sympathetic and positive - despite the fact I didn't empathize my Fe allowed me to recognize the desire for sympathy, and to express it.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #32
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    ^ makes perfect sense.

    my thought process would have probably been sth like this: he's probably just having a bad day. i have bad days, too. i could text something a little positive to brighten his day. then, if he still has the same problem later, he'll probably tell me and we can talk more about what's bothering him and what could be done about it.
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  3. #33
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    ^ makes perfect sense.

    my thought process would have probably been sth like this: he's probably just having a bad day. i have bad days, too. i could text something a little positive to brighten his day. then, if he still has the same problem later, he'll probably tell me and we can talk more about what's bothering him and what could be done about it.
    I would probably think the same thing actually, it's only that this guy isn't looking for solutions.

    I guess difference between Fe and Fi is that Fe feels an obligation, whereas Fi depends on whether or not one empathizes with the particular "cause".
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #34
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    i suppose i empathize with the feeling. people feel stuff and it's real and relative. i attempt to recognize and accept the feeling (be emotionally available/ open/ warm) and if it needs (the person is in need of/ the situation calls for...) further clarification, i try to listen and offer support.

    if i notice that progress isn't happening over time, or that things are really blown out of proportion (getting into a negative loop)... i pull back to observe (i prefer to distance myself from the situation, rather than remove myself entirely, if the other person is reaching out to me). reconnection can happen later, or it can result in separation.

    also here when i can't connect properly, i try to get into an honest place with my own emotions and thoughts. i have found it's enough to just be present, even if you have got no words of comfort, or you are unable to connect more for some reason.
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  5. #35
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    I see. from my way of functioning it is that we should respect each other, and that includes feelings, so if someone who is your friend is in a bad way, the nature of the relationship implies that you have an obligation to try to make them feel better.

    But then if they are not reciprocating but instead just keep expressing to you their feelings without engaging with constructive suggestions, then they are just being self-indulgent and abusing my sense of obligation.

    So to that extent I guess that while Fe can help us engage with Fi, it has its limits.

    As to whether Fi can be "developed" as a "conscious" function, I really don't know.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #36
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I see. from my way of functioning it is that we should respect each other, and that includes feelings, so if someone who is your friend is in a bad way, the nature of the relationship implies that you have an obligation to try to make them feel better.

    But then if they are not reciprocating but instead just keep expressing to you their feelings without engaging with constructive suggestions, then they are just being self-indulgent and abusing my sense of obligation.

    So to that extent I guess that while Fe can help us engage with Fi, it has its limits.

    As to whether Fi can be "developed" as a "conscious" function, I really don't know.
    The Fi perspective is that there is no obligation such as you describe. The obligation is the Fe perspective. The notion of "making someone feel better" is nonsense in Fi-land. You can provide comfort and validation, but sadness is still sadness, and happiness is still happiness, and the feelings come from inside, and are not affected directly by external events. (External events can have an indirect effect, so indirect that the Fi user often doesn't know the "why" of the feeling.)

    The Fi perspective is that feelings exist or not, they are "real" or not, they need to be expressed or not. The concept of "engaging with constructive suggestions" really doesn't work, except in those cases where Te-style suggestions (e.g., "if you cut your expenses, you won't be in such a financial bind") are offered. Any constructive suggestions that attempt to tell one who relies on Fi how to feel differently, that it isn't all that bad, etc., will go nowhere. Any such suggestions contradict the feeling. This is not "self-indulgence." About the most you can say in a negative way, and be supportive, is, e.g., "I understand how you feel, but the only way out is through" or "grin and bear it" or something similar, that the feeling, right or wrong, must be endured, but the feeling should not drive any choices. (E.g., an alcoholic craving a drink, you validate/acknowledge/understand the feeling, but reinforce that it's right not to give in, perhaps emphasizing other feelings such as pride in staying sober.)

    The way to deal with an Fi-user that seems to be abusing your sense of obligation is twofold: express your sympathy, perhaps offer a story of a time when you felt similarly. In fact, all you need to say is the equivalent of "I understand." Heck, even a "Whoa, that sucks, dude - I feel for ya," goes a long way. And that's all that is needed, no further obligation. If you did it right, you'll get something like, "I know I'm being silly, but thanks for listening," as your reply.

    What's the point of the Fi emoting? To get a confirmation that the feelings are "normal," and perhaps to blow off some steam, too. Fi is introverted feeling, after all. If an Fi-user is expressing feelings to you in such a way as requires sympathy, he/she is trusting you with those feelings, for a short while. Fi-users do not do that with just anyone. Even ENFPs with all their bubbliness are hiding behind the bubbles, those aren't their deepest feelings. (The forum is an exception to this ENFP rule, since more private feelings are often expressed.) All you need to do is "be there" and handle the feelings with care. In a way there is nothing to "do", no task at hand, just "be" a friend.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #37
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Fi turns inwards for guidance... i started to develop my Fi by examining my own emotions.

    there are a couple of threads here about developing Fi, if anyone is interested.

    whether it is useful, or necessary to everyone, i don't know...

    i suppose you could find peace with your Fe by being satisfied with trying to make someone feel better. it doesn't matter, if you didn't succeed. your friend probably really appreciates you reaching out. i think accepting the emotion is important, though. they probably can't help it and feeling guilty about not being able to be helped is not helpful :P
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  8. #38
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The Fi perspective is that there is no obligation such as you describe. The obligation is the Fe perspective. The notion of "making someone feel better" is nonsense in Fi-land. You can provide comfort and validation, but sadness is still sadness, and happiness is still happiness, and the feelings come from inside, and are not affected directly by external events. (External events can have an indirect effect, so indirect that the Fi user often doesn't know the "why" of the feeling.)

    The Fi perspective is that feelings exist or not, they are "real" or not, they need to be expressed or not. The concept of "engaging with constructive suggestions" really doesn't work, except in those cases where Te-style suggestions (e.g., "if you cut your expenses, you won't be in such a financial bind") are offered. Any constructive suggestions that attempt to tell one who relies on Fi how to feel differently, that it isn't all that bad, etc., will go nowhere. Any such suggestions contradict the feeling. This is not "self-indulgence." About the most you can say in a negative way, and be supportive, is, e.g., "I understand how you feel, but the only way out is through" or "grin and bear it" or something similar, that the feeling, right or wrong, must be endured, but the feeling should not drive any choices. (E.g., an alcoholic craving a drink, you validate/acknowledge/understand the feeling, but reinforce that it's right not to give in, perhaps emphasizing other feelings such as pride in staying sober.)

    The way to deal with an Fi-user that seems to be abusing your sense of obligation is twofold: express your sympathy, perhaps offer a story of a time when you felt similarly. In fact, all you need to say is the equivalent of "I understand." Heck, even a "Whoa, that sucks, dude - I feel for ya," goes a long way. And that's all that is needed, no further obligation. If you did it right, you'll get something like, "I know I'm being silly, but thanks for listening," as your reply.

    What's the point of the Fi emoting? To get a confirmation that the feelings are "normal," and perhaps to blow off some steam, too. Fi is introverted feeling, after all. If an Fi-user is expressing feelings to you in such a way as requires sympathy, he/she is trusting you with those feelings, for a short while. Fi-users do not do that with just anyone. Even ENFPs with all their bubbliness are hiding behind the bubbles, those aren't their deepest feelings. (The forum is an exception to this ENFP rule, since more private feelings are often expressed.) All you need to do is "be there" and handle the feelings with care. In a way there is nothing to "do", no task at hand, just "be" a friend.
    Thanks. The highlighted parts especially are a very interesting explanation - I had never considered Fi in those terms.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #39
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Fi --> Where your subconscious meets your conscious.

    I suppose the easiest way to initially reach it, is through the consumption of alcohol. Drinking tends to knock out your thinking and your intution, so that all you have to work with is perception and feeling.

    Once you can come to terms with understanding your subconscious Fi under the influence, it becomes much easier to recognize and engage it when sober. It still won't like coming out, though...

    And yes, I do advocate experimenting with certain mind-altering chems as a means of self-discovery. From my perspective, drugs cannot add things to your brain that aren't already there.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagleseven View Post
    Fi --> Where your subconscious meets your conscious.

    I suppose the easiest way to initially reach it, is through the consumption of alcohol. Drinking tends to knock out your thinking and your intution, so that all you have to work with is perception and feeling.

    Once you can come to terms with understanding your subconscious Fi under the influence, it becomes much easier to recognize and engage it when sober. It still won't like coming out, though...

    And yes, I do advocate experimenting with certain mind-altering chems as a means of self-discovery. From my perspective, drugs cannot add things to your brain that aren't already there.
    I agree with your view on drugs, but alcohol tends to bring out my Fe more than anything else. I go into "charm" mode.
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