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Thread: developing Fi

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    what about if your gf wanted an abortion...how does that processing go...is it a ti approach based on logic?
    Here's my thought process if I were in such a scenario:

    Okay, we're pregnant. That's bad. We can't support a child right now. My girlfriend (who is an INFJ) would be emotionally traumatized for life if she ever had an abortion, and I wouldn't want that for her. (To be completely honest, I wouldn't want to have to deal with that either.) Her parents would disown her if they knew she was pregnant. That would traumatize her too, because she's somewhat close to her family. Weighing the two alternatives, however, I think the former is worse than the latter. I would consult her for her opinion, and I am certain she would agree with me. (If she is uncertain, I could make the case against the former, and she would be convinced.) We ought to have the baby. My family would take her in, albeit give me a hell of a (hopefully figurative) lashing when they find out. That's okay, I shouldn't expect any less of them. The most important concerns are the well-being of my girlfriend, and the child. My sister has kids and my parents love them, so I'm sure that they could help us raise the kid and make up for any shortcomings our youth might have on the pregnancy. What is done is done, and I will do my best to be the best possible father and (eventually) husband that I can possibly be.

    ^that's my thought process. How do I feel about abortion in general? I think it's a sad state of affairs when you have to contemplate ending a life, but there are things that are worse in this life than death and sometimes it might be the only manageable option. I would never advocate it unless it is certain that the child's birth and life is going to be fraught with suffering, for both the child and the parent(s).

    (If you're going to say I cheated, and my girlfriend's supposed to WANT an abortion, I'll tell you... you don't know my girlfriend. >_>)

    BONUS ROUND!: If the baby is not mine, because she was raped- I would suggest she have the baby, and volunteer to help raise it as if it were my own. If the baby is not mine because she willingly cheated on me, I would break up with her.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member hilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The fickleness annoys Fi users, too. However, the fickleness is not Fi. Fi, rather, learns how to process the fickleness into something coherent.




    Yes, very slow. Fi is slow. The way to focus it is to think in terms of what you really feel, not in terms of what you feel on the surface level.

    it's the surface-level feelings that have all of the fickleness, because they seem to react randomly to whatever is right there in front of you, or to whatever is going on in your life. What is really going on is that they're often triggering a deeper truth, in Fi terms. The purpose is to find those deeper truths. Once you know they're there, and what they are, you can shape those truths. This is not the same as controlling feelings, but rather is a case of understanding feelings.

    For example, you might feel jealous w/r to someone else getting more attention than you. You feel an instinctive reaction, you are tempted to correct the apparent situation. As an INTP (and me as an INTJ), we usually back off from those feelings and just kind of ignore them. We feel them, they hurt, but rather than process the feeling, we ignore it and choose to apply objectivity to make our choices.

    A deeper Fi understanding might note that your emotions really mean that you like someone a lot ... or they might really mean, "Oh, this is just the petty jealousy, where you're bored and want some attention, you don't really like the person."

    That is, you learn which emotions are important, by identifying them properly with Fi in the scheme of things.

    Fe does the "same thing", except that it uses other people to figure out which emotions are important, by a sophisticated compare/contrast in an "objective" rather than "subjective" manner. The main difference in understanding is that with Fe, you can readily give "because" reasons for why an emotion is good or bad or important or unimportant, but with Fi, you "just know" what an emotion is, but can't really verbalize it without it sounding like random nonsense, but you can sortofkindof say that you "feel strongly" about something and you can't just accept someone else's say-so differently, for example.
    Great insights. This makes a lot of sense to me. Like there's a fleeting surface-level of emotion, that is probably Fe initiated. The Fi stuff connects to that, but sometimes can be difficult to disentangle. The jealousy example makes a lot of sense. I think part of maturing as an INTP is to move out of the default mode of "all emotions are irrelevant and/or indefensible" to recognizing that yes, some can be ignored (bored and want attention), some should absolutely not be (feeling unhappy in a relationship).
    I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
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  3. #23
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Fi (for INTP's) is DANGEROUS!

    Stay away from it I tell ya! Put more trust in your Ti to sort things out! Ignore your Fi!

    Only bad things will come from it if you develop too much Fi as an INTP!

    I know from experience. Do not do it! Or at least, don't bring it to the front lines in your life.


    Basicly, for an INTP. Fi is actually like a drug. You can become addicted to it. It's so much easier than Ti. Because there aren't rules and things keeping you back. Unlike your Ti that critisizes everything you do, Fi can be justified by means of emotions. And by the gods are we good at blocking out emotions with a tiny bit of Ti! Unfortunatly this means that we don't have the same inhibitions a Fi dominant has, in order to make Fi a valuable and helpful asset in your life.

    For INTP's, Fi is like hard drugs. Don't do it, it fucks up your life.


    Unless you can completely block out Ti (which is very unhealthy), Fi can't be controlled and kept on a leash. You will lose perspective.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  4. #24
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    curious...without fi how to you come to determine how you feel on such things as capital punishment or abortion?

    example me?

    I feel so defectively T-ish somedays. (not that T is defective-but what I do with it may be)

    For capital punishment-given the lovely state of TX, we kill lots of folks-I can logically argue it is irrational based upon efficiencies. It costs much more money to execute someone that to keep them in prison for life. There is also a significant number of folks who are executed who are later found to be innocent via evidence. Execution also has not be found to deter crime signifcantly. This is how I would approach the discussion-rationally-but underneath it is based on a gut feel that killing other people is wrong-yet I would feel very uncomfortable trying to argue from the value based perspective-like I have no justification?

    But this bugs me.

    Do all of my arguments always rest upon unspoken values, some I am aware of but some I am not? What internal questions can I ask to identify this as I consider new issues?

    Even weirder-in my own mind-why is it okay to not always defer to logic and external data? Why would it be okay to take the path of some strangely defined internal value when I can identify external rules which defy my value? In the above case-if capital punishment was not inefficient and actually was accurate-how can I legitimately argue against it? Is that argument legitimate? What degree of the human element has to be involved before my value becomes more relevant than a logical conclusion based upon fact?

    Do the arguments of Ts sometimes also rest upon values that they are not consciously aware of?

    I dunno about any of this stuff. But I do resonate with Motie's earlier discomfort at trying to base an argument on values. It just feels error prone.

  5. #25
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I feel so defectively T-ish somedays. (not that T is defective-but what I do with it may be)

    For capital punishment-given the lovely state of TX, we kill lots of folks-I can logically argue it is irrational based upon efficiencies. It costs much more money to execute someone that to keep them in prison for life. There is also a significant number of folks who are executed who are later found to be innocent via evidence. Execution also has not be found to deter crime signifcantly. This is how I would approach the discussion-rationally-but underneath it is based on a gut feel that killing other people is wrong-yet I would feel very uncomfortable trying to argue from the value based perspective-like I have no justification?

    But this bugs me.

    Do all of my arguments always rest upon unspoken values, some I am aware of but some I am not? What internal questions can I ask to identify this as I consider new issues?

    Even weirder-in my own mind-why is it okay to not always defer to logic and external data? Why would it be okay to take the path of some strangely defined internal value when I can identify external rules which defy my value? In the above case-if capital punishment was not inefficient and actually was accurate-how can I legitimately argue against it? Is that argument legitimate? What degree of the human element has to be involved before my value becomes more relevant than a logical conclusion based upon fact?

    Do the arguments of Ts sometimes also rest upon values that they are not consciously aware of?

    I dunno about any of this stuff. But I do resonate with Motie's earlier discomfort at trying to base an argument on values. It just feels error prone.
    In order to adapt to life, you'll have to give in to values here and there. There is also nothing wrong with that.

    But you should trust in others teaching you those values, since it is a way to fit in for us, it should be seen as adaptive. Don't try and find those values for yourself, trying to use Fi. And always keep your Ti in the back of your head. Allow values to influence your descisions if the outcome will be better in the eyes of society, but don't conform to it completely. Leave room for speculation and change. Stay open-minded.

    No Fi needed. It can all be done with Ti and a bit of common sense. Values aren't exclusively Fi. They can be chameleoned.

    Basicly, what I said is: Values are pretty much bogus, if you think long and hard about them, you will find all kinds of flaws and inconsitencies with them. But I do realise that they are important to interact with the rest of our species. Thus I allow for them to be my appearance. Without any values, you'll leave a shallow and boring life.

    Besides, we aren't omniscient, we aren't capable of remaining 100% pure to our Ti. (See whut I did thar? Lulz, cameo-value right there! )
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #26
    Senior Member Fluxkom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    This problem makes a lot of sense yes, but I have no sample solution to it, as in Ti fail.

    I had the luck to meet my INFJ and she has an amazing ability to understand what I feel, when I am not even realizing that I feel a thing atm. At the beginning I accused her of making only assumptions but in time when I started to look at myself objectively, I at least understood what she's talking about.

    The thing is, at least with me, I am an ultimate victim to my surroundings, while my body and my mind live in a somewhat detached state. Meaning, while I stay stoic in my mind all the time, the body perceives the environment and lets me feel and empathize. For example when my girlfriend is pissed, I get pissed too very quickly without noticing it or if the environment of a restaurant for example is uncomfortable, I get uncomfortable. To me that is the epitome of a dominant perceiver, with the huge problem that I do not notice those changes, cause I dont pay attention to my body but rather think that I am in control.

    It is a rather complicated conflinct and I have learned by paying attention to find out more about myself. For example you maybe now those situations in which you suddenly, while watching a movie, burst in tears. You didnt see that coming and then it just happens, stays on for a minute and then is gone. Those are the moments your bodily reactions emerged to that point that you even yourself notices them and if you watch the moments in which that happens you can devise a pattern. I for example found out that I do attach feelings to objects, which lets me appear to be iconoclastic or what's it called. I tend to regulary feel sad about things I for example donated to my sister when she was born and it was not sure if she was going to survive and I donated her a damned doll. That doll broke when she got 14 and I had to cry.

    Well, I am probably not helping much, therefore my bottom line advice now: you need to talk about your feelings, in fact you need to talk about them a lot. If you do not have someone to talk, maybe try out a counsellor, they are quite good ( I heard ).

    I dunno, but what I do know is talking about it, is damn good !
    BAM! That rings some bells. I can totally relate to the burst to tears thing as well as the iconoplasm (who you gonna call?).
    When I get sad I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.

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  7. #27
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    In order to adapt to life, you'll have to give in to values here and there. There is also nothing wrong with that.
    yes, i agree. being too strict isn't going to work... but rather than "giving in", i'd like to think it as adjusting your (less important) values. i think i can defend my values, if necessary, in argument. i also like to keep an open mind and i have changed my values. i have also learned to accept differences better, as i'm getting older. i don't like to preach my values to other people. they are entitled to their own.

    But you should trust in others teaching you those values, since it is a way to fit in for us, it should be seen as adaptive. Don't try and find those values for yourself, trying to use Fi. And always keep your Ti in the back of your head. Allow values to influence your descisions if the outcome will be better in the eyes of society, but don't conform to it completely. Leave room for speculation and change. Stay open-minded.
    but treating values that way isn't going to help positive change in society... for example, the position of women in society would never have been improved, if people hadn't questioned the common values. being interested in values doesn't have to mean closing your mind.

    No Fi needed. It can all be done with Ti and a bit of common sense. Values aren't exclusively Fi. They can be chameleoned.
    it can probably be done with Ti-Fe combo. i, of course, as a Fi dom, see Fi as an important tool, for me. i have found it useful to develop it, or perhaps more importantly for me, learning to control it... thinking is also very important to me, be it Te, or Ti... i suppose Fi comes in in me self-reflecting and because i think i don't know that much, so i think i need to Fi at the very end of the day, in case... i think my understanding of Fi must have improved, because earlier i didn't really trust it, but now i don't think i fear it as much as i used to...

    Basicly, what I said is: Values are pretty much bogus, if you think long and hard about them, you will find all kinds of flaws and inconsitencies with them. But I do realise that they are important to interact with the rest of our species. Thus I allow for them to be my appearance. Without any values, you'll leave a shallow and boring life.
    you can always find flaws and inconsistencies in logic, too, am i wrong?

    Besides, we aren't omniscient, we aren't capable of remaining 100% pure to our Ti. (See whut I did thar? Lulz, cameo-value right there! )
    i value Ti. Ti is the means to impersonal progress, as Fi is the means to personal...
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  8. #28
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    The three fucntions I least relate to are Se, Ni and Fi, in that order (Fi being the most alien) - which makes sense.

    To be honest working on Fe makes more sense, as has been said. As I understand it Fi would either be absent, or be an unconscious function. INTP's form their internal "system" based on Ti, I'm not sure I see how Fi would be useful to us even if it were possible to ocnsicously develop it.

    To deal with other people's Fi, we should engage Ne-Fe, as I understand it.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

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  9. #29
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    To deal with other people's Fi, we should engage Ne-Fe, as I understand it.
    yes, you're probably right.
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  10. #30
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    Fi... Not quite as big a problem for me as my Fe, but I'll do what I can. Simply put, try keeping record of your reactions in some way, shape, or form. If you're feeling especially adventurous, try experimenting on yourself by putting yourself in situations of the variety that you wouldn't understand how or why you'd react. (Provided they aren't life-or-death, or some other form of irreversible situation, but that goes without saying, in a way.) I'm not exactly recommending writing these down, just start analyzing your reactions in certain situations, preferably of your own choosing. Just don't do anything that would seriously harm the other person emotionally. I know these are very, "This-goes-without-saying" corollaries, but I want to make sure that nobody misreads this.
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