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[INTJ] Can an INTJ doubt themselves?

neptunesnet

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I take offense to that.

Which part?

If you're an intelligent INTJ then you're an intelligent INTJ. It doesn't mean they all are. Same with INFPs. If one is a continual stream of bunnies and rainbows and sunshine it doesn't mean we all are.
 

Aleksei

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Type has nothing to do with an individual's personal political philosophy (what alliteration) or intelligence.
Type is statistically correlated with both. My guess is it tangentially influences political orientation, and in turn is influenced by intelligence.

On not all INTJs being intelligent, so far evidence shows they all are. INTJ is the highest-ranked type for IQ, and two-thirds of Americans above two standard deviations (126 IQ points) are INTJ. I have not myself met an INTJ not of above-average intelligence.
 

goodgrief

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Which part?

If you're an intelligent INTJ then you're an intelligent INTJ. It doesn't mean they all are. Same with INFPs. If one is a continual stream of bunnies and rainbows and sunshine it doesn't mean we all are.

Oh wait, sorry. I misread your post. I thought you said that the most intelligent INTJs being self serving hypocritical bastards was the norm.
 

neptunesnet

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Type is statistically correlated with both. My guess is it tangentially influences political orientation, and in turn is influenced by intelligence.

On not all INTJs being intelligent, so far evidence shows they all are. INTJ is the highest-ranked type for IQ, and two-thirds of Americans above two standard deviations (126 IQ points) are INTJ. I have not myself met an INTJ not of above-average intelligence.

Really? I didn't think there was any substantive or empirical evidence that could properly support most typological claims in correlating, say, type and intelligence or type and cultural impact or type and predisposition to certain medical conditions, etc. What statistics are you referring to, exactly? I'm curious.

Also, I believe in quantitative intelligence about as much as I believe in unicorns*.

*I realize that I may have to eat my words for making such a facetious statement. Especially in the NT Rationale.
 

goodgrief

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Really? I didn't think there was any substantive or empirical evidence that could properly support most typological claims in correlating, say, type and intelligence or type and cultural impact or type and predisposition to certain medical conditions, etc. What statistics are you referring to, exactly? I'm curious.

Also, I believe in quantitative intelligence about as much as I believe in unicorns*.

*I realize that I may have to eat my words for making such a facetious statement. Especially in the NT Rationale.

I myself have read stuff about this, and while I don't think it's "you are this type so you must be so and so intelligent" there are trends. Apparently the mots important thing is Intuition over perceiving, then Introversion over extroversion and Thinking over feeling, then judging over percieving. While these may not actually be base determinants of ones intelligence (except maybe intuition because it is all about generating thoughts, noticing patterns and abstract thinking) they do contribute to a tendency to plan and think logically to help in the learning process. This is just from what I've read on other parts of this forum, so some info could just be opinion, but it seems to make sense.
 

Aleksei

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Really? I didn't think there was any substantive or empirical evidence that could properly support most typological claims in correlating, say, type and intelligence or type and cultural impact or type and predisposition to certain medical conditions, etc. What statistics are you referring to, exactly? I'm curious.

Also, I believe in quantitative intelligence about as much as I believe in unicorns*.

*I realize that I may have to eat my words for making such a facetious statement. Especially in the NT Rationale.
Intelligence and Jung types

This one contains the raw data, but it isn't available to the public.

On politics and MBTI I don't know if there's been a formal study on the subject, but I did do some casual research on it on a political forum I frequent. Found a strong correlation between T/F and left/right, but no particular correlation otherwise, and of particular interest I found no correlation between the left/right balance and MBTI/IQ flow, which means politics probably aren't affected by intelligence.

On the correlation between MBTI and mental disease, I couldn't find the studies at the moment, but I know some have been made. Off the top of my head I could tell you that NTs are most likely to develop Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Rest assured, intelligence is real, and it is quantifiable. If you don't believe me, try explaining the technical aspects of entanglement theory to, say, your average McDonald's employee.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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When it comes to things they've prepared for and done their homework on, they are extremely confident, but when they're in an uncomfortable/unfamiliar situation they tend to use silence to their advantage. They're not going to let you know how much they do or don't know about the situation, and they know that this often leads people to assume they know a lot more than they do...which they can use to their advantage, of course.

So INTJs are often not as confident as they seem; they just choose not to reveal it when they don't know what's going on.
Well stated, as is the above message 14 by JWill. The big exception for me is an explicit learning situation. I will readily admit my ignorance to someone in a position to teach me something I wish to learn. I do, however, try to avoid situations that are both uncomfortable/unfamiliar and of no use or interest to me. This seems to maximize efficiency while minimizing stress.
 

Lethe

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All the INTJs on here seem a lot mentally stronger than me.

There's a key word: seem. ;)

In some ways Ni doms doubt themselves (and everything) more than any other types.

INTJs are very good at showing a strong, confident exterior [...].

Agreed. (To goodgrief, or anyone reading this post), even when I'm extremely nervous, I always appear confident in front of a crowd, and to other strangers. Beyond my individual doubts, I value being decisive, assertive, and proactive --- attributes that allow me to organize my environment. I dislike influencing the external world with indecision, so I generally accept my limited capacity for the said activity, move on, and learn what I can from the situation.

However, confront me during my introspective moments, and you'll find that I second-guess thoughts very frequently. Perhaps this is the downside of seeing multiple interpretations of everything, and the desire to integrate different viewpoints into a model. Suddenly, I'll change from a self-controlled being to the most doubtful, and confused person in the room. ;) It reverts back when I have to get things done, and there's no time to over-analyze every possible flaw -- only for mindful action and keen adaptability.

I consistently score INTJ, and I match the description mostly, but from that description and others it seems if you are an INTJ you are always confident in your ability, able to keep at something and never second guess themselves. But I do a lot. i have social anxiety and often feel down about my own ability to achieve both socially and academically, and I sometimes have so little motivation to do anything. Is this normal or at least an occasional occurrence for an INTJ?

On some levels, goodgrief, your troubles with the academia strongly reminds me of my own, but at one point, the question of "So what? What are you going to do about it?" arises. I'm also naturally blessed with the grace of an elephant when it comes to socializing, and the worst case of ADHD for paying attention and completing dull tasks. It seems like events would turn out rather colorful from the start, and the challenges I happen to encounter did not disappoint expectations: at 15, I pretty much failed in everything I touched, except for 'on-the-side' obscure interests. And unfortunately, I didn't have the communication skills to explain my sudden change in attitude -- which started soon after the realization that I severely lacked the some of the most vital traits in this society.

Getting by on a daily basis was not easy, like you, I had little motivation to do anything beyond things that weren't immediately relevant to society's idea of 'success'. I simply wanted to figure out what life meant for me, and to explore the extent of my mind and values. Everyone thought I was wasting my parent's time and money on introspection, and a part of myself had agreed with them, but subconsciously, I knew I couldn't go down that path anymore. For the next two years, a battle of two inner wills drove me up the wall, causing me to become mistrustful of my "softer", dreamier judgment.

Fast-forward six years later to age 21: every failure, achievement, skill, characteristic, knowledge and wisdom I had began to crystallize into a more global perspective, allowing me to overcome previous difficulties with relative ease. I use my advantages to offset the disadvantages, synthesized opposing personalities, and forced myself to cooperate with the lazier, slower voice, or whatever my ambitious self likes calling it. And the thing is, it works. Very well. Just don't give up -- even when you fail (trust me, this will occur a lot in the beginning). Then proceed to practice your weaker attributes like hell with the intention of getting better each time. Optimize your strategies and tactics whenever you can, preferably with the help of numerous references.

....

Looking back now, I sometimes think we place too much importance on bemoaning and criticizing the abilities we don't have, instead of aiming to improve them by following our natural rhythm and needs (however "strange" they may be). If I had to redo the last six years, I'd say this to myself: "Self, you're weird compared to most you know. Maybe even a little nuts. You have different desires, and there's no point in trying to jam yourself into a conventional system, thinking that's the only way to personal achievement. So let's look outside of the box. What can you possibly do to synchronize your current skills and tendencies to your goals? Don't discard your quirks [ahem, like ADHD], use them. If you can figure out the critical elements and its formula, I swear you'll nail them down cold."

======

TL;DR version: Many skills are improvable, if you're willing to dedicate the energy to make them work. :cheese: Everyone has their problems and times where their "strengths" undermine their best intentions, yet understanding that potential and incorporating those benefits into one's long-term strategy is what moves a person forward.

Furthermore, you can't possibly be worse than someone who has earned academic probation/suspension at 3 schools for three years, performed every single procrastinating technique known to mankind, and holds arguably the worst attendance record in high school. There's still a great deal you can change right now, step by step. If someone with an unpredictable attention-span and poor social skills can turn their act around by 180 degrees, you can too. :yes:

No magic required, honest. :D Only faith in yourself, smart training, and being resourceful. It took me six years to learn how to command my ADHD and three to socialize. Perhaps you could do much better. :newwink: If you want help or additional tips, PM me. I know practically everything about there is to know about failing, concentration, and motivation.
 

goodgrief

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There's a key word: seem. ;)



Agreed. (To goodgrief, or anyone reading this post), even when I'm extremely nervous, I always appear confident in front of a crowd, and to other strangers. Beyond my individual doubts, I value being decisive, assertive, and proactive --- attributes that allow me to organize my environment. I dislike influencing the external world with indecision, so I generally accept my limited capacity for the said activity, move on, and learn what I can from the situation.

However, confront me during my introspective moments, and you'll find that I second-guess thoughts very frequently. Perhaps this is the downside of seeing multiple interpretations of everything, and the desire to integrate different viewpoints into a model. Suddenly, I'll change from a self-controlled being to the most doubtful, and confused person in the room. ;) It reverts back when I have to get things done, and there's no time to over-analyze every possible flaw -- only for mindful action and keen adaptability.



On some levels, goodgrief, your troubles with the academia strongly reminds me of my own, but at one point, the question of "So what? What are you going to do about it?" arises. I'm also naturally blessed with the grace of an elephant when it comes to socializing, and the worst case of ADHD for paying attention and completing dull tasks. It seems like events would turn out rather colorful from the start, and the challenges I happen to encounter did not disappoint expectations: at 15, I pretty much failed in everything I touched, except for 'on-the-side' obscure interests. And unfortunately, I didn't have the communication skills to explain my sudden change in attitude -- which started soon after the realization that I severely lacked the some of the most vital traits in this society.

Getting by on a daily basis was not easy, like you, I had little motivation to do anything beyond things that weren't immediately relevant to society's idea of 'success'. I simply wanted to figure out what life meant for me, and to explore the extent of my mind and values. Everyone thought I was wasting my parent's time and money on introspection, and a part of myself had agreed with them, but subconsciously, I knew I couldn't go down that path anymore. For the next two years, a battle of two inner wills drove me up the wall, causing me to become mistrustful of my "softer", dreamier judgment.

Fast-forward six years later to age 21: every failure, achievement, skill, characteristic, knowledge and wisdom I had began to crystallize into a more global perspective, allowing me to overcome previous difficulties with relative ease. I use my advantages to offset the disadvantages, synthesized opposing personalities, and forced myself to cooperate with the lazier, slower voice, or whatever my ambitious self likes calling it. And the thing is, it works. Very well. Just don't give up -- even when you fail (trust me, this will occur a lot in the beginning). Then proceed to practice your weaker attributes like hell with the intention of getting better each time. Optimize your strategies and tactics whenever you can, preferably with the help of numerous references.

....

Looking back now, I sometimes think we place too much importance on bemoaning and criticizing the abilities we don't have, instead of aiming to improve them by following our natural rhythm and needs (however "strange" they may be). If I had to redo the last six years, I'd say this to myself: "Self, you're weird compared to most you know. Maybe even a little nuts. You have different desires, and there's no point in trying to jam yourself into a conventional system, thinking that's the only way to personal achievement. So let's look outside of the box. What can you possibly do to synchronize your current skills and tendencies to your goals? Don't discard your quirks [ahem, like ADHD], use them. If you can figure out the critical elements and its formula, I swear you'll nail them down cold."

======

TL;DR version: Many skills are improvable, if you're willing to dedicate the energy to make them work. :cheese: Everyone has their problems and times where their "strengths" undermine their best intentions, yet understanding that potential and incorporating those benefits into one's long-term strategy is what moves a person forward.

Furthermore, you can't possibly be worse than someone who has earned academic probation/suspension at 3 schools for three years, performed every single procrastinating technique known to mankind, and holds arguably the worst attendance record in high school. There's still a great deal you can change right now, step by step. If someone with an unpredictable attention-span and poor social skills can turn their act around by 180 degrees, you can too. :yes:

No magic required, honest. :D Only faith in yourself, smart training, and being resourceful. It took me six years to learn how to command my ADHD and three to socialize. Perhaps you could do much better. :newwink: If you want help or additional tips, PM me. I know practically everything about there is to know about failing, concentration, and motivation.

Thanks. This is probably the most helpful post I've ever read. I do share many of these problems that you have as well, such as ADHD (predominantly innatentive) and this is very comforting information to know.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,836
To be honest I don't think that INTJs are really that much self confidant as they look. It is just that in most cases they blindly do what their Ni tells them to do. However since Ni is often correct about things INTJs looks so self confidant.

Actually I have a problem taking a credit for some things that I have done since it isn't that I come up with this or that willingly. It just that many things came to me out of no where so I simply apply them if possible.


Can anyone relate ?
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Actually I have a problem taking a credit for some things that I have done since it isn't that I come up with this or that willingly. It just that many things came to me out of no where so I simply apply them if possible.

Can anyone relate ?
To me, credit is often beside the point. I know it is important to many people, so I do my best to ensure others get the credit they deserve. It is enough for me to see the things I do succeed, to see my ideas put into practice. I would rather have my good idea implemented but someone else get the credit, than receive praise for doing something I consider foolish or ill-advised. I have, in fact, occasionally engineered the first case and unfortunately endured the second.
 
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