[INTP] INTPs: "Sticks in the mud"?

[EJCC]

It seems like people are always stereotyping SJs as being sticks in the mud, i.e. having a certain way they think and do things that they never divert from, and that they look down on people who think/act differently. But with two of the INTPs I know, it seems as if they're more like that than the SJs I know.

Examples:

1. With my (female) INTP friend and ESFJ friend, on a road trip.
INTP: *makes a very dry, teasing joke*
Me and ESFJ: *not laughing and thinking the INTP is serious, and being mean to us*
INTP: What's wrong with you? That's like the fifteenth funny joke you haven't appreciated in the past two days! You people have no sense of humor.

^She was serious/frustrated, and not being ironic. I mention this example because many/most non-INTPs I know will adjust their style of humor based on the audience, and this particular INTP stuck with the one style the entire time, despite no one laughing.

2. My INTP dad, who never goes to church (where my mom and I are in the choir) on Easter even though he's religious, talking with the older sister of the autistic man he takes care of every Sunday morning.
Sister: You know, since it's Easter, why don't you take the morning off? You can go to the Easter service.
Dad: Uh... *freezes up*
Sister: It's no problem. You can be with your family for more of the day.
Dad: Um... *still frozen up a bit* no thank you.
Sister: Really, it's no problem. Go ahead.
Dad: Really, no thank you.
Sister: You could take my brother with you.
Dad: I'll take your brother... but it won't be to church. It'll be to do what we usually do.

He made all these excuses to me about that interaction, like how he doesn't know how all the ceremonial stuff works (the church in question is Episcopal), but even he recognized that it was REALLY because he's a self-described "stick in the mud" (which is where I got the thread title from), and that even though he doesn't really have an Easter tradition (more like a Sunday Routine), he's uncomfortable making a new one.


I'm not dissing INTPs with this thread - after all, I love you guys, and I love my INTP dad and my INTP friends. It's just that these small pieces of evidence are so contrary to the stereotypes that I've heard that I felt the need to verify whether these two INTPs aren't just exceptions to some general rule. And who better to ask than the Ti/Ne folks - the masters of objectivity!

 

[cafe]

My INTP husband calls himself a stick in the mud. He is rather curmudgeonly. He's fun and funny in his comfort zone, but if you try to drag him out of it, you can expect to be made miserable.

 

[ajblaise]

2. My INTP dad, who never goes to church (where my mom and I are in the choir) on Easter even though he's religious, talking with the older sister of the autistic man he takes care of every Sunday morning.
Sister: You know, since it's Easter, why don't you take the morning off? You can go to the Easter service.
Dad: Uh... *freezes up*
Sister: It's no problem. You can be with your family for more of the day.
Dad: Um... *still frozen up a bit* no thank you.
Sister: Really, it's no problem. Go ahead.
Dad: Really, no thank you.
Sister: You could take my brother with you.
Dad: I'll take your brother... but it won't be to church. It'll be to do what we usually do.

Lol... *high fives your Dad* He knows what he's doin.

I can totally see how INTPs can be sticks in the mud, especially to ESXXs. Good for you for making this thread, and even on enemy territory!

 

[Timeless]

If INTPs are sticks in the mud, then ENTPs like to play with the mud.

 

[burymecloser]

1. With my (female) INTP friend and ESFJ friend, on a road trip.
INTP: *makes a very dry joke*
Me and ESFJ: *not laughing and thinking the INTP is serious*
INTP: What's wrong with you? That's like the fifteenth funny joke you haven't appreciated in the past two days! You people have no sense of humor.

I'm going to focus on this one for now.

I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a stick in the mud, and it's my impression that a lot of people think I'm funny, but I can relate to your INTP friend. When I use the sort of dry humor you mention, it's sometimes unclear to people whether or not I'm joking, and my serious demeanor sometimes seems to discourage people from laughing (lest they offend me if I was serious?).

This is primarily an issue for people who don't know me well. As I get more comfortable with people and start to let my guard down a little, they seem to rapidly get more comfortable with me, and things like that flow a lot better, with more smiles and fewer misunderstandings. Alcohol seems to help.

It's strange that your friend doesn't seem to have picked up on the pattern of her jokes falling flat, or has noticed the pattern but hasn't put 2 and 2 together to recognize why or start working towards a solution.

I find myself wondering how common or uncommon this might be in N/S interaction. Anyone have thoughts on the matter?

 

[EJCC]

I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a stick in the mud, and it's my impression that a lot of people think I'm funny, but I can relate to your INTP friend. When I use the sort of dry humor you mention, it's sometimes unclear to people whether or not I'm joking, and my serious demeanor sometimes seems to discourage people from laughing (lest they offend me if I was serious?).

I actually relate to this too. Once I was giving a speech, and a few people laughed at one joke but the audience was mostly either silent or muttering stuff like "Was that a joke? Am I allowed to laugh?"

It's strange that your friend doesn't seem to have picked up on the pattern of her jokes falling flat, or has noticed the pattern but hasn't put 2 and 2 together to recognize why or start working towards a solution.

This is the key. My theory is that her mindset was "It's their problem and not mine, therefore they need to change and not me." Kind of like that scene in Office Space when they ask Michael Bolton why he doesn't just have people call him Mike (since he's so sick of people mentioning Michael Bolton the singer in front of him), and he says "No way! Why should I change? He's the one who sucks!"

I find myself wondering how common or uncommon this might be in N/S interaction. Anyone have thoughts on the matter?

I'm inclined to say that it's not common, if only based on my experience. The situation you were describing is one I've also seen with two S friends of mine - an ISTJ and an ISFP. I've seen NFs, NTs, ISFJs, ISTJs and ESTJs laugh at that sort of humor, though I've never met an ESFJ in my life who's been able to appreciate it.

 

[lets eat pie]

Hah, I relate to both situations. My jokes never seem to fly around SJs. And the same vice versa. Though occasionally I'll say or do something that wasn't meant to be really funny but would crack up an SJ. The dry humor you mentioned is usually accompanied with a straight face because we don't want to be seen laughing at our own lame jokes. It's like a safety procedure to see if someone else laughs; then it's okay to laugh too.

I was in an embarrassing situation once when an ESFJ listened in on me and my friends' goofy banter and wanted to contribute by telling us a joke she thought was just hilarious. Things got awkward...especially when she was already finished and I was still waiting for the punchline. In the end she had to explain the joke to us which still didn't really help. Something about a bride wearing her mother-in-law's dress or whatever.

Maybe it's a S/N thing but my ESTP friend seems to follow my humor pretty well. Maybe N humor is more jumpy and haphazard, where a joke can just hit you suddenly and S is more of a buildup to an ironic end?

Your dad has his reasons for seemingly being a stick in the mud, as do others in a different situation. Though now I see how we can seem like sticks in the mud. I get very stubborn sometimes but usually I refuse to disclose why.

 

[EJCC]

^Sigh... Thank you for your comment, but the point you got from my point is exactly the opposite of the point I was trying to get across. I like dry humor too, and I don't think it's an S/N thing (honestly, sometimes it feels more like an F/T thing, though I'm sure that's also false); usually I'm really good with it, but... maybe I wasn't describing her humor style very well. It wasn't just that it was dry - it was also teasingly mean. Kind of a big-sisterly thing. But see, my ESFJ friend and me kept taking her jokes as mean jabs, when she didn't intend for them to be that way. I'll edit the OP so that the humor thing is more clear.

Also, I'm totally fine with my dad's decision. Nothing I said in the OP is meant to have any connotation whatsoever - it's simply objective evidence of my point.

 

[lets eat pie]

It wasn't just that it was dry - it was also teasingly mean. Kind of a big-sisterly thing. But see, my ESFJ friend and me kept taking her jokes as mean jabs, when she didn't intend for them to be that way.

Ah that sort. In that case, I still relate to that. Yeah I normally control myself with the cutting humor when in public or with people I don't know very well. With close friends I just let it loose because I know they know I'm not being mean at heart, just making a somewhat mean joke...if that makes sense.

Also, I'm totally fine with my dad's decision. Nothing I said in the OP is meant to have any connotation whatsoever - it's simply objective evidence of my point.

I know it didn't mean to. I'm sorry if it came out that way, I will edit my post. It's just that I can see how people can see each other as stubborn in completely different ways but can't fathom how.

 

[ZPowers]

He's a stick in the mud for skipping church? Next you'll say he opposes midday naps!

Seriously, I must've been going to the wrong church all these years. Maybe I should look into that Church of St. Hunter S Thompson. Or that Utah one. The Church of LSD.

 

[Craft]

Strange. My jokes are always well taken by an ESFJ's. It's when I say something absurd that she would laugh. Most of them weren't intentional but I've learned to find what they find funny. Acting oblivious also works well on an ISTJ. On the ESTP, ridiculing someone.

"Sticks in the mud".

I believe the INTP's Fe allows them to feel the need to satisfy other's expectation. I've only been this way, stick in the mud, on rarer occasions wherein I criticize so much of the logic of people's advice. If it doesn't make sense to me, why would I do it? But for most, I try to avoid conflict between us and usually just go with the flow in order to satisfy their expectations.

Sometimes, I get tired of being a pushover though.

 

[burymecloser]

I actually relate to this too. Once I was giving a speech, and a few people laughed at one joke but the audience was mostly either silent or muttering stuff like "Was that a joke? Am I allowed to laugh?"

Yes! I think you see this more when speaking before a group than one-on-one.

This is the key. My theory is that her mindset was "It's their problem and not mine, therefore they need to change and not me."

I don't think that's an INTP thing. If your intent is to amuse, and you've seen that it's not working, logically you should change your tactics.

Kind of like that scene in Office Space when they ask Michael Bolton why he doesn't just have people call him Mike (since he's so sick of people mentioning Michael Bolton the singer in front of him), and he says "No way! Why should I change? He's the one who sucks!"

You know, there's nothing wrong with that name.

 

[INTPness]

Pertaining to the first situation:

What someone else in this thread already said - it's true that many of us usually keep a straight face when we crack a joke (in order to see if others will laugh). I'm also not very animated unless I'm with very close friends/family. Around others, I'm very reserved and "consistent" in my demeanor I think, so people often don't know when I'm joking and when I'm not. It definitely can come off mean to other people if they don't know we are joking. Also, someone mentioned that SJ's don't always get INTP humor and vice versa. I find that true as well. It's very hit-and-miss with ESTJ's in particular. I think they only get about 20% of my jokes and I only get about 20% of theirs. The other 80% of the time, it just doesn't work for some reason.

Here's an example that happened to me recently with an ESTJ supervisor: First I should say that this guy is CONSTANTLY making comments that his employees cost him too much money and that we don't work efficiently, etc. He makes "jokes" about this all the time and everyone thinks he is being mean. It certainly sounds mean and people don't like him because of it. Well, the other day he had taken my time sheet, so I couldn't write down my hours for the week. I was looking for it and when I asked him if he had it, he said half-jokingly/half-serious, "Yes I have it. I took it and got rid of it because I can't afford you anymore." So, in response, I joked (with a straight face), "That's good, because it means I won't be coming in tomorrow. Good luck!"

INTP humor often has 2 meanings. What I meant there was:
1. Ha ha. I get your joke and I'm joking back with you.
2. Just in case you are serious and throwing a jab at me, well, I'm going to throw something back your way that will make you think before you say silly things in the future.

Anyways, he didn't seem to like my comeback and said something like, "Wow. No loyalty. If there's no paycheck you don't want anything to do with the place. That's real good."

He missed my joke. I'm very loyal. He wants to throw jabs all day long, but when someone pops back with something like that he gets pissy. I don't know. We just don't get each other.

Unfortunately, with most ESTJ's, we usually end up talking only when we need to.

With the second situation, we don't like being pushed to do things that other people want us to do. Huge pet peeve. It sounds like the guy's sister was sort of nicely nudging him to go to church. But, he didn't want to. So, the more she pushes (even though the intentions are good), the more he's going to push back. If someone pushes us a little bit too much, that's when we start to show our Ti teeth a little bit. Blunt, biting comments that let people know that we don't approve of what they are doing. It tends to stop people in their tracks a bit and, in some cases, sends them the other way with their tail between their legs. I never like to use it, but if I'm being pressured, it's something I will use.

 

[93JC]

I think you just don't know what "stick-in-the-mud" means. If anything YOU are the stick in the mud for wanting your INTP friend to adapt to your sense of humour. Don't you see how you are the one who won't acquiesce, who won't change, who's stuck in their ways an unwilling to budge?

And in the case of your dad not going to church, uh... didn't you just say he NEVER GOES TO CHURCH? Why's he the stick-in-the-mud for wanting to do something enjoyable rather than submit to some awful religious ceremony because that's what the sister does every Easter?

Not wanting to go to church is the complete opposite of "stick-in-the-mud".

 

[93JC]

I think you just don't know what "stick-in-the-mud" means. If anything YOU are the stick in the mud for wanting your INTP friend to adapt to your sense of humour. Don't you see how you are the one who won't acquiesce, who won't change, who's stuck in their ways an unwilling to budge?

And in the case of your dad not going to church, uh... didn't you just say he NEVER GOES TO CHURCH? Why's he the stick-in-the-mud for wanting to do something enjoyable rather than submit to some awful religious ceremony because that's what the sister does every Easter?

Not wanting to go to church is the complete opposite of "stick-in-the-mud".

 

[kelric]

I won't say too much about the sense of humor thing... different people find different things funny, and there's definitely the possibility of tension when dealing with people who don't "get" your sense of humor.

But on the church thing... here's the deal. He doesn't want to go. Period -- especially on Easter. You mention that he doesn't have an Easter tradition, and that he doesn't want to take steps to make a new one -- my guess is that he doesn't want one - at all. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he agreed with the "stick in the mud" description solely as a means to stop the conversation. Sort of a "sure, okay, I'll agree I'm a stick in the mud, if you'll stop trying to convince me to do what I don't want to."

Sounds like he's perfectly happy hanging out with "Brother" on Sunday mornings, and doesn't want to change that, especially for a "special day" (Easter). Even though he's religious, he may be uncomfortable with large group demonstrations like a church service -- and that probably goes double for "big deal" events like Easter. I know that if it were me, I'd be uncomfortable in that situation, especially if I felt like I'd been coerced into going. Chances are good that he'd be pretty miserable there, and he knows it... and would rather that you go and enjoy yourselves while he hangs out with Brother and enjoys himself.

If you've got a really good reason, he'd probably go (ie, baptism of friend/relative, wedding etc.) and be fine with it. But if it's more of a "if I could get him there I know he'd enjoy it"... not so much.

I could be wrong, of course, but I can easily see myself in his shoes, and that's how I'd feel about it.

 

[Spamtar]

Yeah I am pretty comfortable about denying social invitations than I used to be. Some might call that being a stick in the mud by not going for the benefit of the group. Me? I call it freedom of choice.

 

[burymecloser]

I think you just don't know what "stick-in-the-mud" means. If anything YOU are the stick in the mud for wanting your INTP friend to adapt to your sense of humour. Don't you see how you are the one who won't acquiesce, who won't change, who's stuck in their ways an unwilling to budge?

How is she supposed to change her sense of humour? You can't make an active decision to see something as funny, and it's not her fault that her friend didn't communicate that she was joking. No one is stuck in their ways here, it's just a communication divide. The friend's persistence with an unsuccessful line of humour is surprising.

And in the case of your dad not going to church, uh... didn't you just say he NEVER GOES TO CHURCH? Why's he the stick-in-the-mud for wanting to do something enjoyable rather than submit to some awful religious ceremony because that's what the sister does every Easter?

The OP says that her dad describes himself as a stick in the mud. I agree that in this thread the term doesn't seem to be applied the way we usually mean it (someone who's no fun), but I think you're getting caught up in that and missing the point.

Not wanting to go to church is the complete opposite of "stick-in-the-mud".

That's totally dependent on one's perspective.

 

[EJCC]

How is she supposed to change her sense of humour? You can't make an active decision to see something as funny, and it's not her fault that her friend didn't communicate that she was joking. No one is stuck in their ways here, it's just a communication divide. The friend's persistence with an unsuccessful line of humour is surprising.


The OP says that her dad describes himself as a stick in the mud. I agree that in this thread the term doesn't seem to be applied the way we usually mean it (someone who's no fun), but I think you're getting caught up in that and missing the point.


That's totally dependent on one's perspective.

Thank you, burymecloser. I'm glad you understand.

To the other previous posters on this page:

Firstly... y'all need to read the OP a little more clearly. I recognize that some of you, e.g. kelric, meant well in your comments, and I appreciate it, but that type of discussion is not what this thread is about.

Secondly, and I repeat myself here, I am NOT COMPLAINING. I was simply GIVING EVIDENCE of my point. Don't take this as an insult! NEITHER OF THOSE TWO EXAMPLES ANNOYED ME. I just saw them as examples of INTPs being slightly rigid, and noticed that rigidity in INTPs is something that isn't discussed here, and I thought it was an interesting topic to discuss. As I said before, I love INTPs, and this thread is simply an inquiry into a theory of mine. I am making a broad statement here, with some evidence. What matters here is the broad statement, and not the little details.

Thirdly, please do me a favor and leave your bias at the door. Don't interpret this as yet another SJ-NT conflict, or, even worse, "those SJs being dense, stupid and ignorant again". That's not even remotely what this is. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


Now, if anyone else besides ajblaise and burymecloser and some others wants to contribute to the discussion in a positive, enlightening, constructive and helpful fashion, that would be awesome.

/rant

 

[EJCC]

Some elaboration:

I think you just don't know what "stick-in-the-mud" means. If anything YOU are the stick in the mud for wanting your INTP friend to adapt to your sense of humour. Don't you see how you are the one who won't acquiesce, who won't change, who's stuck in their ways an unwilling to budge?

I agree with burymecloser here. If someone's jokes give me a gut reaction and makes me feel hurt, that's not something cerebral that I can change by willpower alone.

And in the case of your dad not going to church, uh... didn't you just say he NEVER GOES TO CHURCH? Why's he the stick-in-the-mud for wanting to do something enjoyable rather than submit to some awful religious ceremony because that's what the sister does every Easter?

He likes church. He's had positive experience when he's gone there before. He loves the music. He's told me this before. He likes everything about it, but was uncomfortable. Did you notice the *freezes up* things I had in the script in the OP? Those were meant to indicate the feeling of "Oh god, a new situation that I don't fully understand! What do I do???" Also, I never said that she did it every Easter. I said that my MOM and I do it every Easter. VERY different thing! Like I said before, PLEASE read the OP before making judgments like this.

p.s. The fact that you used the word "awful" there, when I hadn't even REMOTELY implied that in the OP, suggests to me that you're projecting your own opinion onto my dad. Please, like I said before, leave your stereotyping at the door.

Not wanting to go to church is the complete opposite of "stick-in-the-mud".

You tell my dad that. He's the one that used the phrase to describe his own behavior in that situation.