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  1. #11
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Strange. My jokes are always well taken by an ESFJ's. It's when I say something absurd that she would laugh. Most of them weren't intentional but I've learned to find what they find funny. Acting oblivious also works well on an ISTJ. On the ESTP, ridiculing someone.

    "Sticks in the mud".

    I believe the INTP's Fe allows them to feel the need to satisfy other's expectation. I've only been this way, stick in the mud, on rarer occasions wherein I criticize so much of the logic of people's advice. If it doesn't make sense to me, why would I do it? But for most, I try to avoid conflict between us and usually just go with the flow in order to satisfy their expectations.

    Sometimes, I get tired of being a pushover though.
    A search for truth is a search for a greedy perspective.

    Nah, that's not truth. That's just your bullshit ideas of truth. Truth is always inclusive. If it's not inclusive, then toughen it up and try harder.

  2. #12
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I actually relate to this too. Once I was giving a speech, and a few people laughed at one joke but the audience was mostly either silent or muttering stuff like "Was that a joke? Am I allowed to laugh?"
    Yes! I think you see this more when speaking before a group than one-on-one.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    This is the key. My theory is that her mindset was "It's their problem and not mine, therefore they need to change and not me."
    I don't think that's an INTP thing. If your intent is to amuse, and you've seen that it's not working, logically you should change your tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    Kind of like that scene in Office Space when they ask Michael Bolton why he doesn't just have people call him Mike (since he's so sick of people mentioning Michael Bolton the singer in front of him), and he says "No way! Why should I change? He's the one who sucks!"
    You know, there's nothing wrong with that name.
    i just want to be a sweetheart

  3. #13
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Pertaining to the first situation:

    What someone else in this thread already said - it's true that many of us usually keep a straight face when we crack a joke (in order to see if others will laugh). I'm also not very animated unless I'm with very close friends/family. Around others, I'm very reserved and "consistent" in my demeanor I think, so people often don't know when I'm joking and when I'm not. It definitely can come off mean to other people if they don't know we are joking. Also, someone mentioned that SJ's don't always get INTP humor and vice versa. I find that true as well. It's very hit-and-miss with ESTJ's in particular. I think they only get about 20% of my jokes and I only get about 20% of theirs. The other 80% of the time, it just doesn't work for some reason.

    Here's an example that happened to me recently with an ESTJ supervisor: First I should say that this guy is CONSTANTLY making comments that his employees cost him too much money and that we don't work efficiently, etc. He makes "jokes" about this all the time and everyone thinks he is being mean. It certainly sounds mean and people don't like him because of it. Well, the other day he had taken my time sheet, so I couldn't write down my hours for the week. I was looking for it and when I asked him if he had it, he said half-jokingly/half-serious, "Yes I have it. I took it and got rid of it because I can't afford you anymore." So, in response, I joked (with a straight face), "That's good, because it means I won't be coming in tomorrow. Good luck!"

    INTP humor often has 2 meanings. What I meant there was:
    1. Ha ha. I get your joke and I'm joking back with you.
    2. Just in case you are serious and throwing a jab at me, well, I'm going to throw something back your way that will make you think before you say silly things in the future.

    Anyways, he didn't seem to like my comeback and said something like, "Wow. No loyalty. If there's no paycheck you don't want anything to do with the place. That's real good."

    He missed my joke. I'm very loyal. He wants to throw jabs all day long, but when someone pops back with something like that he gets pissy. I don't know. We just don't get each other.

    Unfortunately, with most ESTJ's, we usually end up talking only when we need to.

    With the second situation, we don't like being pushed to do things that other people want us to do. Huge pet peeve. It sounds like the guy's sister was sort of nicely nudging him to go to church. But, he didn't want to. So, the more she pushes (even though the intentions are good), the more he's going to push back. If someone pushes us a little bit too much, that's when we start to show our Ti teeth a little bit. Blunt, biting comments that let people know that we don't approve of what they are doing. It tends to stop people in their tracks a bit and, in some cases, sends them the other way with their tail between their legs. I never like to use it, but if I'm being pressured, it's something I will use.

  4. #14
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    I think you just don't know what "stick-in-the-mud" means. If anything YOU are the stick in the mud for wanting your INTP friend to adapt to your sense of humour. Don't you see how you are the one who won't acquiesce, who won't change, who's stuck in their ways an unwilling to budge?

    And in the case of your dad not going to church, uh... didn't you just say he NEVER GOES TO CHURCH? Why's he the stick-in-the-mud for wanting to do something enjoyable rather than submit to some awful religious ceremony because that's what the sister does every Easter?

    Not wanting to go to church is the complete opposite of "stick-in-the-mud".

  5. #15
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    I think you just don't know what "stick-in-the-mud" means. If anything YOU are the stick in the mud for wanting your INTP friend to adapt to your sense of humour. Don't you see how you are the one who won't acquiesce, who won't change, who's stuck in their ways an unwilling to budge?

    And in the case of your dad not going to church, uh... didn't you just say he NEVER GOES TO CHURCH? Why's he the stick-in-the-mud for wanting to do something enjoyable rather than submit to some awful religious ceremony because that's what the sister does every Easter?

    Not wanting to go to church is the complete opposite of "stick-in-the-mud".

  6. #16
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    I won't say too much about the sense of humor thing... different people find different things funny, and there's definitely the possibility of tension when dealing with people who don't "get" your sense of humor.

    But on the church thing... here's the deal. He doesn't want to go. Period -- especially on Easter. You mention that he doesn't have an Easter tradition, and that he doesn't want to take steps to make a new one -- my guess is that he doesn't want one - at all. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he agreed with the "stick in the mud" description solely as a means to stop the conversation. Sort of a "sure, okay, I'll agree I'm a stick in the mud, if you'll stop trying to convince me to do what I don't want to."

    Sounds like he's perfectly happy hanging out with "Brother" on Sunday mornings, and doesn't want to change that, especially for a "special day" (Easter). Even though he's religious, he may be uncomfortable with large group demonstrations like a church service -- and that probably goes double for "big deal" events like Easter. I know that if it were me, I'd be uncomfortable in that situation, especially if I felt like I'd been coerced into going. Chances are good that he'd be pretty miserable there, and he knows it... and would rather that you go and enjoy yourselves while he hangs out with Brother and enjoys himself.

    If you've got a really good reason, he'd probably go (ie, baptism of friend/relative, wedding etc.) and be fine with it. But if it's more of a "if I could get him there I know he'd enjoy it"... not so much.

    I could be wrong, of course, but I can easily see myself in his shoes, and that's how I'd feel about it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #17
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Yeah I am pretty comfortable about denying social invitations than I used to be. Some might call that being a stick in the mud by not going for the benefit of the group. Me? I call it freedom of choice.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  8. #18
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    I think you just don't know what "stick-in-the-mud" means. If anything YOU are the stick in the mud for wanting your INTP friend to adapt to your sense of humour. Don't you see how you are the one who won't acquiesce, who won't change, who's stuck in their ways an unwilling to budge?
    How is she supposed to change her sense of humour? You can't make an active decision to see something as funny, and it's not her fault that her friend didn't communicate that she was joking. No one is stuck in their ways here, it's just a communication divide. The friend's persistence with an unsuccessful line of humour is surprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC
    And in the case of your dad not going to church, uh... didn't you just say he NEVER GOES TO CHURCH? Why's he the stick-in-the-mud for wanting to do something enjoyable rather than submit to some awful religious ceremony because that's what the sister does every Easter?
    The OP says that her dad describes himself as a stick in the mud. I agree that in this thread the term doesn't seem to be applied the way we usually mean it (someone who's no fun), but I think you're getting caught up in that and missing the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC
    Not wanting to go to church is the complete opposite of "stick-in-the-mud".
    That's totally dependent on one's perspective.
    i just want to be a sweetheart

  9. #19
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    How is she supposed to change her sense of humour? You can't make an active decision to see something as funny, and it's not her fault that her friend didn't communicate that she was joking. No one is stuck in their ways here, it's just a communication divide. The friend's persistence with an unsuccessful line of humour is surprising.


    The OP says that her dad describes himself as a stick in the mud. I agree that in this thread the term doesn't seem to be applied the way we usually mean it (someone who's no fun), but I think you're getting caught up in that and missing the point.


    That's totally dependent on one's perspective.
    Thank you, burymecloser. I'm glad you understand.

    To the other previous posters on this page:

    Firstly... y'all need to read the OP a little more clearly. I recognize that some of you, e.g. kelric, meant well in your comments, and I appreciate it, but that type of discussion is not what this thread is about.

    Secondly, and I repeat myself here, I am NOT COMPLAINING. I was simply GIVING EVIDENCE of my point. Don't take this as an insult! NEITHER OF THOSE TWO EXAMPLES ANNOYED ME. I just saw them as examples of INTPs being slightly rigid, and noticed that rigidity in INTPs is something that isn't discussed here, and I thought it was an interesting topic to discuss. As I said before, I love INTPs, and this thread is simply an inquiry into a theory of mine. I am making a broad statement here, with some evidence. What matters here is the broad statement, and not the little details.

    Thirdly, please do me a favor and leave your bias at the door. Don't interpret this as yet another SJ-NT conflict, or, even worse, "those SJs being dense, stupid and ignorant again". That's not even remotely what this is. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


    Now, if anyone else besides ajblaise and burymecloser and some others wants to contribute to the discussion in a positive, enlightening, constructive and helpful fashion, that would be awesome.

    /rant
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  10. #20
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Some elaboration:

    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    I think you just don't know what "stick-in-the-mud" means. If anything YOU are the stick in the mud for wanting your INTP friend to adapt to your sense of humour. Don't you see how you are the one who won't acquiesce, who won't change, who's stuck in their ways an unwilling to budge?
    I agree with burymecloser here. If someone's jokes give me a gut reaction and makes me feel hurt, that's not something cerebral that I can change by willpower alone.

    And in the case of your dad not going to church, uh... didn't you just say he NEVER GOES TO CHURCH? Why's he the stick-in-the-mud for wanting to do something enjoyable rather than submit to some awful religious ceremony because that's what the sister does every Easter?
    He likes church. He's had positive experience when he's gone there before. He loves the music. He's told me this before. He likes everything about it, but was uncomfortable. Did you notice the *freezes up* things I had in the script in the OP? Those were meant to indicate the feeling of "Oh god, a new situation that I don't fully understand! What do I do???" Also, I never said that she did it every Easter. I said that my MOM and I do it every Easter. VERY different thing! Like I said before, PLEASE read the OP before making judgments like this.

    p.s. The fact that you used the word "awful" there, when I hadn't even REMOTELY implied that in the OP, suggests to me that you're projecting your own opinion onto my dad. Please, like I said before, leave your stereotyping at the door.

    Not wanting to go to church is the complete opposite of "stick-in-the-mud".
    You tell my dad that. He's the one that used the phrase to describe his own behavior in that situation.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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