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Thread: INTP and GOD

  1. #81
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Well, we need a universal definition for God in order to prove and assess its existence.
    Let's say we could agree on one definition of God and then prove or disprove God's existence. We still would only have proven or disproven one God. At most what we can say is something like this:

    "If God does exist then he must be like this...(and then state characteristics)."

    Or conversely:

    "If God does exist then he most certainly cannot be like this...(and then state other characteristics)."

    Using this format you can include all of the God's that you have proven, disproven or still remain uncertain.
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  2. #82
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Let's say we could agree on one definition of God and then prove or disprove God's existence. We still would only have proven or disproven one God. At most what we can say is something like this:

    "If God does exist then he must be like this...(and then state characteristics)."

    Or conversely:

    "If God does exist then he most certainly cannot be like this...(and then state other characteristics)."

    Using this format you can include all of the God's that you have proven, disproven or still remain uncertain.
    If you do that you will inevitably become a solipsist who believes you are God, since your existence is the axiom for inferring all other knowledge.

  3. #83
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    If you do that you will inevitably become a solipsist who believes you are God, since your existence is the axiom for inferring all other knowledge.
    Incorrect. I'm only referring to definitions. Definitions are not a part of knowledge. They are only part of the language we use to describe what we know.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Incorrect. I'm only referring to definitions. Definitions are not a part of knowledge. They are only part of the language we use to describe what we know.
    Then I suppose the aforementioned process could be used. Have you come to any conclusions on your own time? God could be anything. We're like termites speculating about what's outside of the log, even though we'll never see it. God could be conscious, it could be unconscious. It could be male, it could be female. It could be within the sphere of the universe, it could not be. It could be a blow up doll or an orangutan. Most of the properties of these things contradict each other, so I don't see any unifying truth except for the fact that they all exist.

    I believe this is where your Ti and my Te oppose each other.

  5. #85
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    I definitely believe in God, I don't care what people think that show off their
    success because there are plenty of people that can barely get what they n-
    eed to get by no matter how much ass they haul for everybody else to the
    point of sacrifice of themselves. The fact that some people who aren't invol-
    ved on either side see it happen and just ignore it was what turned me against a lot of society. People think I should want popularity because of being outgoing and power because of ability to grasp difficult things on my own and being creative but it was them that ended up being afraid of me when my not caring what they thought started to draw attention to their own short commings.

    Lol, when I was 21 I pretty much said what Elphaba says when Glinda says
    not to be afraid then Ephaba says I'm not, it's the wizard who should be afraid of me

    ENTJ

  6. #86
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Likewise a person may say that God does not exist, but I believe that God does exist. How do we know we are talking about the same God? Perhaps God does not exist by the first person's definition, and God does exist by the second person's?
    God within the context of Judeo-Christian theology is an entity that has a personal identity, is omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent and actively involved in the lives of people. There may not be one precise definition for the term in question, however, the above stated characteristics represent the conceptual overlap of all attempts to define an entity. No evidence has yet been adduced to show that God as defined above does exist. One can only assert the true conclusion that God exists by ascribing to him a different definition from the above yet that would be an instance of an equivocation logical fallacy.
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  7. #87
    Ginkgo
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    "All gods are homemade, and it is we who pull their strings, and so, give them the power to pull ours." - Aldous Huxley

  8. #88
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I do believe in dragons, and there is plenty of evidence that they used to exist. However the name that we use is dinosaur instead of dragon. However, yes I believe that giant ferocious lizards used to exist.

    Now another person might say that dinosaurs and dragons are not the same thing. But in this case we are not using the same definition of dragon.
    I would argue that your definition of dragon is meaningless. Let's say I decide to call housecats "sabre-toothed tigers", and someone mentions that sabre-toothed tigers are extinct. I could say, "You're wrong! I have two sabre-toothed tigers at home!" Fine, according to my definition, I'm right. In every meaningful way, sabre-toothed tigers remain extinct. My definition is not useful. It's just contrarian semantics, taking a word that already has a widely accepted definition, and saying it's the same as this other word that refers to something else.

    In this case, I don't see a difference between you saying that dragons used to exist and me saying my cats are sabre-toothed tigers. Calling dinosaurs "dragons" doesn't mean that dragons used to exist, any more than calling cats "sabre-toothed tigers" means that sabre-toothed tigers are not extinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser
    Likewise a person may say that God does not exist, but I believe that God does exist. How do we know we are talking about the same God? Perhaps God does not exist by the first person's definition, and God does exist by the second person's?
    Granted. Certainly, God means different things to different people.

    A person could begin by asking whether there is any supernatural deity. If so, how many are there? Do they play an active role in our lives, or are they just out there? Do they have human thoughts and emotions, or are they fundamentally different from us? Do they physically exist in any sense we can understand?

    I don't know the answers to any of those questions.

    We can also study religious texts to find more specific descriptions. I've done that, and I know there are some gods I don't believe in. Some of them don't make sense. Some of them, even if I did believe in them, wouldn't be worthy of worship.
    Last edited by burymecloser; 04-07-2010 at 02:18 AM. Reason: added, then deleted, extraneous material
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  9. #89
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    We can also study religious texts to find more specific descriptions. I've done that, and I know there are some gods I don't believe in. Some of them don't make sense. Some of them, even if I did believe in them, wouldn't be worthy of worship.
    I agree here. I find most modern Gods, as they appear in their original texts (Bible, Torah, Koran) are not worthy of worship. Some people get around the uncomfortable aspects of these Gods by picking and choosing at the Bible or what-have-you, but you are essentially calling all of the Bible potentially fallible by calling any of the supposed Word of God fallible. Besides, by self-editing, one creates one's own God rather than following an actual Christian God. I don't see why they don't just start from scratch.

    For this reason, part of me has more respect for the ideological consistency of fundamentalists than most Christians (or Muslims or what-have-you), even though those fundamentalists are considerably scarier (because many of these Holy Books' teachings are scary themselves).

    Actually, strong, well-thought out, self-made and consistent ideologies are generally more impressive to me than the nature of those ideologies. A Christian who knows why he is a Christian and can make a strong argument for it is more interesting and worthy of respect to me than someone who agrees with my views, but only because their parents did. To quote Bertrand Russell, who had a way with words: "What makes a free thinker is not his beliefs, but the way in which he holds them. If he holds them because his elders told him they were true when he was young, or if he holds them because if he did not he would be unhappy, his thought is not free; but if he holds them because, after careful thought, he finds a balance in their favor, then his thought is free, however odd his conclusions may seem."
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  10. #90
    Senior Member milkyway2's Avatar
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    I started to question everything I thought and believed. Then I learned a lot more things. When I started to question the "christian" god's existence... my mind opened up from there. Now I am still unsure as to what is out there... because none of us know. But now I see that religion is such a made up thing to make humans feel better about being alive and so much more that I would say I would lean towards believing there is no god for sure.

    When I loosened up the constructs on my mind I began to explore who I was and what I believed and now I can learn much more and am more happy


    Yay

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