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Thread: INTP and GOD

  1. #71
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Why wouldn't you believe in dragons?
    My high degree of belief in the non-existence of dragons is grounded in my belief that any creature like a dragon would likely not be able to remain undetected for so long. Of course, if dragons exist, and they are highly intelligent--as is commonly claimed--it is possible that they may have a good reason to keep humanity ignorant of their existence.

    I suspect that you asked this question because you think a parity exists between the reasoning of arguments for the non-existence of dragons and arguments for the non-existence of God. If this was your intent, then I disagree, because the existence of dragons would be established empirically, whereas the existence of God is established transcendentally. (Or so I'd argue, anyway).

  2. #72
    Senior Member Gewitter27's Avatar
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    I'm agnostic. I used to believe, but now I'm just not sure.
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  3. #73
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    If this was your intent, then I disagree, because the existence of dragons would be established empirically, whereas the existence of God is established transcendentally. (Or so I'd argue, anyway).
    Go ahead and submit your argument for why the existence of God is established transcendentally. Furthermore, if God's existence is established transcendentally, why should not the existence of dragons also be vindicated in the same manner?
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  4. #74
    Ginkgo
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    How can you establish the empirical existence of anything transcendentally? You might as well say that the realm of imagination produces reality.

    And in that case, we make our own gods.

    Here is something I posted in another thread: "Until a supreme being directly addresses me and proves itself to me, then there is no reason to live my life in accordance with religious dogma or even loose spirituality. I think the human urge to identify our "Creator" probably stems from our innate human urge to identify our parents. This is why we automatically anthropomorphize the cause of the universe as a conscious entity similar to us. And so, we strive to embody this entity, and we try to become paragons among men. Perhaps orcas attribute existence to a giant, omnipotent orca. But the term "god" is so ambiguous that I don't even know how to address the issue. Anyhow, it is a symbol of self-awareness. We are gods, psychologically speaking. Empirically speaking, we are mad animals searching for sustenance."

  5. #75
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    How can you establish the empirical existence of anything transcendentally? You might as well say that the realm of imagination produces reality.
    Oh, I am not going to say that a dragon is an empirical entity, exactly like God, it is a purely abstract creature that exists in its own right, regardless of whether anyone can imagine dragons or gods.
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  6. #76
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Oh, I am not going to say that a dragon is an empirical entity, exactly like God, it is a purely abstract creature that exists in its own right, regardless of whether anyone can imagine dragons or gods.
    Well, that's the problem. "God" is so ambiguous that it is impossible to test. It could me a metaphysical construct, it could be the universe itself (a kind of pantheistic entity), it could exist within the realm of another dimension. But, as far as dimensional speculation goes - if you understand quantum mechanics, then you don't understand quantum mechanics. So you're left with absolutely no direct way to infer God or the nature of God.

  7. #77
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Well, that's the problem. "God" is so ambiguous that it is impossible to test. It could me a metaphysical construct, it could be the universe itself (a kind of pantheistic entity), it could exist within the realm of another dimension. But, as far as dimensional speculation goes - if you understand quantum mechanics, then you don't understand quantum mechanics. So you're left with absolutely no direct way to infer God or the nature of God.
    Oh God is just like any other animal, but a unique and an intelligent one. Its just like dragons, it has a sense of personal identity. We can assume that He exists as a transcendental entity or one that is neither physical nor mental!
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  8. #78
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Oh God is just like any other animal, but a unique and an intelligent one. Its just like dragons, it has a sense of personal identity. We can assume that He exists as a transcendental entity or one that is neither physical nor mental!
    I'm converting to the Church of Jabberwocky.



    You've convinced me.

  9. #79
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Why wouldn't you believe in dragons?
    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    This is a valid question.

    Does anyone have a rebuttal? Statement of reinforcement?

    I do believe in dragons, and there is plenty of evidence that they used to exist. However the name that we use is dinosaur instead of dragon. However, yes I believe that giant ferocious lizards used to exist.

    Now another person might say that dinosaurs and dragons are not the same thing. But in this case we are not using the same definition of dragon. According to my definition dragons did exist, and if you do research you will find my definition is not an arbitrary one either. However according to another definition, the other person will be correct in asserting that dragons do not exist.

    Likewise a person may say that God does not exist, but I believe that God does exist. How do we know we are talking about the same God? Perhaps God does not exist by the first person's definition, and God does exist by the second person's?
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  10. #80
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post

    Likewise a person may say that God does not exist, but I believe that God does exist. How do we know we are talking about the same God? Perhaps God does not exist by the first person's definition, and God does exist by the second person's?
    Well, we need a universal definition for God in order to prove and assess its existence. You could say that quantum fluctuations that create a singularity that then expand into the universe is your "God", but another person could say that Shiva, the 4 armed, big tittied goddess of chaos is their God. And of course, the Buddhist believe that reality is merely an illusion, and the individual must achieve godhood by transcending it. Very different things by definition, but all could be denoted as "gods". Therefore, we need to clarify what God is and what God isn't before we can continue to prove such a thing. If there is no consensual definition, then there cannot be a way to test and prove a thing under controlled conditions to form a consensual conclusion.

    Even if I were to infer God by my own means, there is still a chance that I could be suffering from a mental disorder such a psychosis. This is why consensual tests are the live-blood of science.

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