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Thread: INTP and GOD

  1. #61
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodgrief View Post
    I think that the epitome of open-mindedness is agnosticism. It is physically impossible for us to know what exists beyond the realm of reality so to firmly believe in a particular unjustifiable possibility seems a bit closed minded. Though honestly I think atheism has more credibility than religion.
    Agnosticism is state of being conclusionless. What about being open to the possibility that agnosticism is wrong or is that excluded from the open-mindedness?

    Anyway, I know from experience that God is real and communicates with people in various ways, so agnosticism isn't really a valid alternative for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    Agnosticism is state of being conclusionless. What about being open to the possibility that agnosticism is wrong or is that excluded from the open-mindedness?
    What about the possibility none of you exist and that you are all figments of my own imagination?

    Anyway, I know from experience that God is real and communicates with people in various ways, so agnosticism isn't really a valid alternative for me.
    That's actually a more rational comment to make, and I can respect it more... even if I would phrase it personally as "From my experience I've come to decide that God is real...."

    I actually have faith beliefs too, but I see it as a choice and what works for me... rather than something I can impose on another or prove in some wide-ranging fashion.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    I don't care to talk about things as if they are hypothetical anymore because it's sort of a disservice to myself. It's like, "Do I believe what I believe or not?" I'm not some narrow-minded fundamentalist, and I don't believe I'm in a state where I have everything figured out. I wasn't the same as I am now a two years or even one year ago, and I know I'll be different a year from now. That is the way things should be. As McLaren depicts in his latest book, being a Christian (or whatever flavor of Christianity you prefer i.e. Catholic, baptist, pentecostal, etc.) sort of suggests you're in a static state, and from my experience, that's really how things are. They're open to minor changes, but they have their core beliefs settled and are unwilling to change them. As McLaren suggests, what is proper is to be a disciple. Being a disciple is much more like joining a karate school. You go in as a white belt, and it's obvious it's gonna take many, many years before you master your art and get to the highest ranks. You don't just join and learn a few core principles, and then you're mostly done with your learning. It's actually the outsiders who labeled the followers of Jesus as Christians, and it is no longer a label I like.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ObeyBunny View Post
    (I don't believe, but if I did) I would think that god himself was an ENTP.

    • P, he created the universe on a whim.
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    • T, He's willing to let you fall flat on your face for the sake of learning a lesson.
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    • N, Not so much evidence at this point. But I would say that an S would build tons of universes of all different shapes and qualities. An N would just create one and spend all his time watching it.
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    • E. he made lots of angle buddies to pal around with him. Also, he treats heaven as a club where even us humans can eventually join (If he finds us cool enough)
    Following the old testament God seems like an INTJ to me. He is way to decisive and direct to be a perceiver. And when has he ever got to know anybody. He created his angels, that's true, but they are subordinates and live to serve him. I'd also say he isn't a sensor, because that would mean he's an ISTJ, and he's more creative and revolutionary than that type tends to be. God's an absolute ruler, and ENTP's aren't.

    In the new testament, he seems to tune down a bit though, creating a whole new type of middle management (Christ) to do the work for him.
    (removed)

  5. #65
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodgrief View Post
    Hmm... interesting. E is believable I think, but I think the imagination and thought he put into creating everything screams N.
    You seem to have an erroneous impression of Sensors as being incapable of imaginative or creative thought.

    I know a lot of MBTI literature paints it this way, but that's really not the case. Paul McCartney, one of the most celebrated songwriters of all time, is an SFP, along with countless other highly imaginative and creative people.

    N vs. S is really just a question of the way people like to conceptualize information. Ss see a series of separate pieces and Ns see the relationships between the pieces/how they form a group, but that doesn't really prevent either from being imaginative or thoughtful.

    Many SJs are far more imaginative than you might expect; they usually just don't pursue creative careers because they want more stable and predictable income.


    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    My point is if you know the best possible answer on absolutely everything(ignoring subjectivity), wouldn't that lead into yourself relying more on your "previously stored information"?
    Well, you can't know the best possible answer on absolutely everything if you ignore subjectivity. You need to distinguish between subjective correctness and objective correctness. Introverted judgment has a tendency to believe its subjective judgments are absolutely correct; extroverted judgment has a tendency to believe its impressions of objective standards are absolutely correct.

    The "previously stored information" in question here, in regards to Si, is actually of a subjective nature, since it is related to an introverted function. (Introverted = subjective; extroverted = objective.) Since there does not exist objectively proven information to answer every question in the universe, it's impossible to have the best answer to everything purely through objectivity...if someone didn't understand this he would probably come off as pretty closed-minded, but it certainly wouldn't be due to Si. (Overemphasis on objective standards would more likely be a result of Te or Fe, which is no more likely to affect SJs than it is NJs. In fact, the group most likely to suffer from this problem is EJs.)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #66
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    I don't care to talk about things as if they are hypothetical anymore because it's sort of a disservice to myself. It's like, "Do I believe what I believe or not?"
    I can understand that, which is why I thought a bit before responding to you.

    I responded mostly because you have to allow other people to express themselves in just the same way. If you state things like that, you are now stating reality for other people... not just for yourself. The actual truth is that "you believe that." Do you "know" it? I guess you can say you do, but I don't believe you do. You have no way of KNOWING it, you have no way to verify it to prove to yourself it's true, all you have is a fierce BELIEF it is true, and a fierce COMMITMENT to that truth.... and your truth claim is now stamping on other people's toes wh9o might feel THEY *know* something counter to your knowledge, just as strongly.

    Who is right?
    Someone's gotta be wrong.
    Someone's knowledge is not quite right.

    The word "know" to ME is inappropriate.

    So I decided to challenge you.
    But that's all I'll say about it right now.

    I'm nice about it because I "get it."
    Other people will not be as nice, especially if they are not Christians.
    Be prepared for harsher reactions.
    (Then again, you might just see that as carrying your cross.)

    I'm not some narrow-minded fundamentalist, and I don't believe I'm in a state where I have everything figured out. I wasn't the same as I am now a two years or even one year ago, and I know I'll be different a year from now. That is the way things should be. As McLaren depicts in his latest book, being a Christian (or whatever flavor of Christianity you prefer i.e. Catholic, baptist, pentecostal, etc.) sort of suggests you're in a static state, and from my experience, that's really how things are. They're open to minor changes, but they have their core beliefs settled and are unwilling to change them.
    Pretty much.
    That's sort of my issue to pick with evangelicals and fundies.
    I think life is actually change, and God is bigger than our prior understandings.
    We're constantly having our knowledge and beliefs revised, reworked, and understanding life and faith in new ways.

    it seems silly to fight over details we cannot prove (although, as above, those people you disagree with vehemently state they "KNOW" their truth and McLaren and others are wrong).

    It makes more sense to me to always be listening, learning, growing, and not locking in things so rigidly... especially if we are claiming to be Christians / disciples and thus "followers of the supreme creator god." the way many religious people think, they seem to follow a lesser god, not a greater one.

    As McLaren suggests, what is proper is to be a disciple. Being a disciple is much more like joining a karate school. You go in as a white belt, and it's obvious it's gonna take many, many years before you master your art and get to the highest ranks. You don't just join and learn a few core principles, and then you're mostly done with your learning. It's actually the outsiders who labeled the followers of Jesus as Christians, and it is no longer a label I like.
    The fight to relabel Christians as "disciples" or whatever else has been around a long time. To me, the name doesn't bother me much -- every generation "rebrands" itself in order to set itself apart in some way, and the very next generation of believers then divorces itself from THAT label.

    I don't have an issue with "disciple." I just tend to not get hung up on titles, in time "disciple" will be the bad word and something else will take its place.

    McLaren's cool, I have a few of his books. I borrowed a Greg Boyd title from a friend over the weekend that I'm parsing through right now.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #67
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I can understand that, which is why I thought a bit before responding to you.

    I responded mostly because you have to allow other people to express themselves in just the same way. If you state things like that, you are now stating reality for other people... not just for yourself. The actual truth is that "you believe that." Do you "know" it? I guess you can say you do, but I don't believe you do. You have no way of KNOWING it, you have no way to verify it to prove to yourself it's true, all you have is a fierce BELIEF it is true, and a fierce COMMITMENT to that truth.... and your truth claim is now stamping on other people's toes wh9o might feel THEY *know* something counter to your knowledge, just as strongly.
    I'm not afraid of being challenged or whatever, and I know not everyone is going to agree with me. It's making me consider Jesus, though. Did He walk around talking about things as if they may be or as if they are hypothetical? What we have him saying as recorded in the gospels shows that He was quite confident in what He believed. We also have people, mostly Jewish religious people, that disagreed with Him.

    I really do believe I'm right and a lot of other people are wrong. That only ends up being a virtue if you are indeed proven right in the end. Like Mclaren, I don't subscribe to the idea that God is going to torture anyone for an eternity or an extended period of time. Being right and wrong is no longer about who is going to heaven or hell or anything along those lines. When you make that apparent, things suddenly become a lot more pleasant to people who do disagree with you about believing in Jesus and such. Actually, it bothers the Bible-thumping, eternal-torment-believing Christians a lot, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The fight to relabel Christians as "disciples" or whatever else has been around a long time. To me, the name doesn't bother me much -- every generation "rebrands" itself in order to set itself apart in some way, and the very next generation of believers then divorces itself from THAT label.

    I don't have an issue with "disciple." I just tend to not get hung up on titles, in time "disciple" will be the bad word and something else will take its place.

    McLaren's cool, I have a few of his books. I borrowed a Greg Boyd title from a friend over the weekend that I'm parsing through right now.
    I could be wrong, but I'm hoping the idea of being labeled something that means you're in a plastic state could stick and prevent people from settling into a static state.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    I'm not afraid of being challenged or whatever, and I know not everyone is going to agree with me. It's making me consider Jesus, though. Did He walk around talking about things as if they may be or as if they are hypothetical? What we have him saying as recorded in the gospels shows that He was quite confident in what He believed. We also have people, mostly Jewish religious people, that disagreed with Him.
    Well, if I "knew" that Jesus existed and did and said exactly what is recorded in our modern Bible, then I might think the same as you.

    To maintain my personal integrity, however, I can't state that I "know" that about the Bible. I can choose to "believe" the Bible -- put faith in it -- but it's not at all self-evident that the Bible is what it claims to be and is accurate to that degree. It's all got to be taken on faith.

    I can still believe and commit to something that I do not "know," though.
    And do that as passionately as anyone who claims to "know" something.

    I really do believe I'm right and a lot of other people are wrong.
    Personally, that's where I started... but I was always agonizing over it... and finally had to follow my conscience. If you're different, then that's fine; I just was noting some of the difficulties you're going to have with that route, just as I have my own in terms of my approach.

    That only ends up being a virtue if you are indeed proven right in the end.
    Yeah. It's too much for me, I need to be more open.

    Like Mclaren, I don't subscribe to the idea that God is going to torture anyone for an eternity or an extended period of time. Being right and wrong is no longer about who is going to heaven or hell or anything along those lines.
    I agree with you.

    I think the whole heaven/hell thing is a red herring. It doesn't even matter. It's all about the Kingdom of God... which you enter as soon as you become saved. The redemptive process is ongoing and unfolding. Death is just another doorway on the same journey. I hate the way the church has seemed to separate life and afterlife into separate boxes, and focused so much on the latter.... and the former only to make sure the latter is good.

    When you make that apparent, things suddenly become a lot more pleasant to people who do disagree with you about believing in Jesus and such. Actually, it bothers the Bible-thumping, eternal-torment-believing Christians a lot, though.
    True. But good luck convincing them otherwise. It's hard for people to get out of that mindset, esp because they don't want to. My mom's the sweetest person, but because my beliefs are not like hers, she still cries to herself and prays that I'm not going to hell. I wish I could make her feel better.

    I could be wrong, but I'm hoping the idea of being labeled something that means you're in a plastic state could stick and prevent people from settling into a static state.
    You never know.
    You're an idealist, aren't you?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #69
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    I'm an Atheist although If there was some new information that god existed I could change. It's just that with how unlikely it is that there is a god, if I were to say I'm unable to state he doesn't exist I wouldn't be able to state anything.
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
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  10. #70
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm nice about it because I "get it."
    Other people will not be as nice, especially if they are not Christians.
    Be prepared for harsher reactions.
    I disagree vehemently. Some atheists/agnostics/other will be mean, but no meaner than a lot of Christians are. At the very least, the non-religious are less likely to commit murders or exclude/guilt trip certain groups of people (like gays) for being different than the religious based exclusively on those non-religious beliefs (certainly, atheists will kill, Stalin being the most prominent example, but I seriously doubt his motives had anything to do with his atheism). Or, for that matter, are less likely to attempt to convert people (I despise this; I find it incredibly arrogant to be so certain in your beliefs you feel like you can just go up to someone you've never even met and assume they need your help. I'm confident, but generally open in my beliefs. I certainly don't tell others what to think).

    Christians can be nice or terrible. Atheists are the same way. I hate the perception that because I didn't read my morality or sense of respect out of a book or think it's derived from something bigger than general humanity or life it's somehow more likely to be evil or I'm more likely to be cruel.

    Side note, the phrasing including only Christians could be read as offensive not only to people without religion like me, but people of other religions.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

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