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  1. #51
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    What is this thread about?

    I think INTJs are definitely compassionate and from the people that I know, do indeed seem softer than the INTP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    And itís similarly meaningless for a Fi-user to boast authenticity or honesty since it is simply the rational fleshing out of the principles of coherent subjective systems. Just as it would be meaningless to Fi to legitimise contradicting actions or to claim emotional entitlement as a means to direct other people's choices or to support oneself through group-approval as in "After all I've done for you...", "Everybody, hear what he did to me..." etc.
    (FYI: It's not to say that competent Fe-users do this. Because they generally don't. According to Lenore, such unpleasant emotional hickups are on the other hand precisely what immature Fe would do, more specifically tertiary Fe wrecking havock in a tertiary temptation spree.)
    I'm not entirely sure how accurate the above statement is. I don't believe that tert Fe or immature Fe does what you said.

    Lenore said that tert Te looks for support from the "crowd" and begs people to look at the facts. It brings everything to the surface and says "look what happened here - who agrees with me?" It looks for support.

    Tert Fe tries to guilt trip the person. There is an element of making the person look bad, but it's usually done in a quiet, underhanded way. There is usually an element of "friendly" behavior.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I find the effort to coherently, logically, systematically describe Fi, here, to be quite amusing. The final picture of Fi appears to Escheresque, built by unguided Te, and is declared to be a self-consistent system of rules. "Oh, wait, it has to be consistent with this ... and this ... and this ... oh, and this."



    The reason for the error is that neither Ti nor Fi is self-consistent. Rather, there is a drive for a kind self-consistency. Even the terms of the self-consistency are unchosen: even a purely logical Ti is necessarily reliant upon choosing proper initial axioms. And no one's Ti qualifies as "purely logical."

    And that's for Ti, where in the end there is a desire to be consistent with reality.

    For Fi, it's worse. There is nothing objective to which to compare it.
    We're stuck saying what it's "like", not what it "is." H&B's description is in all likelihood apt for her experience of Fi. The words and descriptions she is applying, however, result from her own subjective understanding and an attempt to turn it into an objective, explainable construct. With every extra detail, it becomes more and more difficult to separate the essential Fi from Fi working with Ne and Te and all the rest.

    I am sensing a bit of bias in various descriptions, an emphasis to indicate that Fi isn't "just mushy feelings", it isn't about "being nice," (I agree with this, btw) but that it is about <deep voice>Values!</deep voice> ... *waits for echo of the deep voice to fade away*

    I believe that values are an intrinsic part of Fi (and Fe), but there is a strong tendency to turn them into objective rulesets, and to detach them from their underlying subjectivity, as if that subjectivity were something to be abhorred. I believe that the "values" that one states are a mere shadow of what is going on in Fi - kind of the best approximation that we can make with words, and if you take them too seriously, you start processing with Te (or Fe, or even Ti), and start arriving at conclusions that may even contradict the real, core Fi.

    Personally, I take what I get from Fi on its own, it has its own voice. Ni has a voice. Te has a voice. Se, when I pay attention, has a voice. When I say what I say, when I do what I do, it is a synthesis of all of these. It is very rare for only a single voice to be expressed, though a single voice might be predominant.

    That's why I use the imagery to "explain Fi." If I add in too much more, the idea is inadvertently communicated that: "explanation of Fi" == "Fi". And then that "explanation of Fi", which is just a projection of Fi into words, proceeds to imply conclusions that eventually contradict Fi. With imagery, however, I can successfully communicate Fi, and then when the analogy is stretched too far, we realize that it is the words, the projection, the image that fails, while the mutual understanding of Fi is maintained.

    [ My next topic is to describe the synthesis, in particular of Te and Fi. Expect a General Relativity analogy. ]
    I find your dismissal of my idea that Fi (amongst doing other things as well) works as a 'visceral' (pre-rule, pre-moral, pre-verbal, pre-analytic etc.) bullshit detector as 'just H&Bs personal feeling' a tad condescending. I've been conscious about having what I now know as 'Fi' since I was five, thus about 35 years. Which does NOT mean 'mastering' it (oh boy, no...).

    If you're an xxFP, no matter how fucked up your childhood has been Fi is per definition your preferred judgment function when judging and maneuvering your way through growing up. Unless you been comatose, it's simply impossible to NOT know if it's how you roll because it's so powerfully visceral and will mess about with you in an unmistakable fashion until you get it a bit under control.
    So, I know a bit what I'm talking about. Unlike some others here about who like to pose as authorities of Fi while hardly ever having used it.

    Sorry that I sound harsh, but I feel mocked to the point of just turning my back and not caring anymore having to witness too many inconsistent and phony selfindulging declamations of Fi-ness across the NF-threads.

    So, I focused on the aspect of Fi that will manifest as a nagging - but at first unanalysed - certainty that *something* in what people do and say rings fake. Doing so was firstly because I think it is an important and valuable aspect of Fi, but it was certainly also my intention to make a plea to posters pretending to have Fi, to please turn ON that bullshit detector if they mean business.

    But I'll try one more time (is this the one-more-chance-ENFP-stupidity?):

    Regardless of cognitive preferences, every human will experience shifting subjective emotions as well as shifting objective calculations. And this fact precisely doesn't equate that every human is using Fi and Ti.

    Introverted judging preference is, both necessarily as well as in lived life about judging and processing the perceptions of our world on a much more systematic, universal and 'timeless' level than the idea of some arbitrary, artsy or sentimental personal whims suggest. I don't like the reductionism to subjectivist "whatever you like it to be, honey" that I hear in your dismissal. I may have misheard, though. But if not, I'll have to say that I find describing Fi like something excusing personal irresponsibility, to be a fox hole for legitimising unethical behaviour ("It wasn't me, it was my feewings that did it!" :alleged Fi-user hits and runs: ).

    And: if celebrating unethical and irresponsible eulogised action, or irresponsibly vomit one's first arbitrary, sentimentalist and incoherent judgments are supposed to be the core qualities of the functional theoretical "Fi", I've either misunderstood everything or I'm so done with MBTI.


    But I agree with you, Uumlau: Fi is in itself certainly not Te-shaped and will easily appear simplifyied and mechanistic when Te'ed.

    What's more, Fi is not word-shaped at all. But neither are electrons. In fact, I suspect that the only wordshaped things in the world are... words.
    Which kind of leaves us with the question: so, do we shut up about the subjective and objective reality or do we keep talking?

    The same problem goes for Ti obviously, since it's what judges reality in the first place thus is what establishes anything objective to 'compare itself to'. Self-delusional circularity could ensue.

    The good news are of course that realising how correspondence theory (on the T-side) and idealistic transcendentalism (on the F-side) are both trying to prove themselves by such circular bogus doesn't need to imply that now "anything goes". Critical awareness of trivial unprovability does by no means take away our responsibility to talk about all these non-words in as precise and interesting and consistent and enlightening and constructive fashion as possible, be it feeling judgments or electron spins.

    So, let's keep talking and conceptualising, this idealist would say. For now at least...



    Okay, aside from this epistemological rant, I still think I'm on to something important about Fi in general, not just how little H&B experienced it. Since it is quite close to these thoughts by Seymore, quoting Jung in the "Weary Fi-users" thread today (sorry, I don't know how to link to a post yet), I'll take the words out of my mouth in the hope it will create a better understanding of this universal aspect of how things can and cannot fit in a subjective system, than I was able to:


    How Fi is like Ti

    To paraphrase Jung "everything that is true of Ti is true of Fi, substituting Thinking for Feeling." It may be hard for Ti-users to fully appreciate, but I think there is a lot of truth there.

    Both Ti and Fi tend to work from universal principles, tending to ignore surrounding prevailing standards. For Ti, those principles are founded in logical objectivity (although in terms of one's own theoretical system). For Fi, those principles are based on ethics, humanity and aesthetics (not that Ti lacks aesthetics). Neither Ti nor Fi place much emphasis on status or authority. In fact, both try to find the universal in the essence of the specific.

    Both Ti and Fi value staying true to the essence of things. In Ti's case, it emphasizes staying true to things with logical consistency and precision. Fi demands staying true to things on the level of feelings, ethics and/or aesthetics.

    Fi values staying true to one's self, one's nature, and the universal qualities of humanity. Ti values staying true to logical principles, precision and conceptual elegance.

    Fi and Ti both tend to stand up for the importance of the specific reality. Fe and Te care more about general organizing principles applied consistently (and often externally), while Fi and Ti both are about adjusting understanding precisely in order to capture the underlying essence of the individual case.

    Ti does have some advantages over Fi, since it is, in part, objective. Thinking, whether introverted or extraverted, more easily allows for external evaluation and validation. Logical theories and concepts can be detached from the people involved, and be both perceived and weighed for truth. Feeling doesn't have same objective measures.

    The Nature of Fi

    Jung states (Psychological Types, p387), "It is extremely difficult to give an intellectual account of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate description of it, although the peculiar nature of this kind of feeling is very noticeable once one has become aware of it." Fi tends to elude verbal and logical descriptions, much to the frustration of both the Fi-user and his or her audience. This also hampers Fi-users in debate, since they are not always able to clearly explain and defend their deep understanding of the issue at hand.

    Jung continues, "Conversely, with the introverted feeling type, feeling attains an abstract and universal character and can establish universal and permanent values." Introverted feeling forms principles based on those things that bind all of us together as human beings. It tends to respect the personhood, values and moral agency of the individual.

    Introverted Feeling is also about harmonizing one thing to another. Actions should be harmonized with principles, deeper purposes and aesthetics. One's daily life should harmonize with one's underlying values. One person can harmonize with the feelings of another to better understand them. Fi can be rather exacting in this respect, leading to an kind of uncompromising and demanding perfectionism.

    Fi is the judging function closest to the unconscious, so tends to communicate by means of feelings and primordial images.

    Fi imparts value judgements before logical understanding. Therefore Fi-doms may understand something as essential, important and right long before they can defend why that is the case."

  3. #53
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I'm not entirely sure how accurate the above statement is. I don't believe that tert Fe or immature Fe does what you said.

    Lenore said that tert Te looks for support from the "crowd" and begs people to look at the facts. It brings everything to the surface and says "look what happened here - who agrees with me?" It looks for support.

    Tert Fe tries to guilt trip the person. There is an element of making the person look bad, but it's usually done in a quiet, underhanded way. There is usually an element of "friendly" behavior.
    Lenore on tertiary Fe-temptation in ENTPs:
    Tertiary Fe: (1) "I'll lay a guilt trip on this guy, tell him all I've done for him and suggest that the next time he's in a tough spot, he might need my help. (2) Well, hmm, ok, I'll be all friendly. I'll smile, tell him I like him, what a great guy he is. (3) Well, hmm, that's not working, either. Ok, I'll make him look bad in the eyes of his friends."

    The Secondary Function would say: "What is the truth? Not what people would agree is true, not an angle on the truth for making it palatable to someone, but the whole, honest truth?"



    The emotional tone of such tert-Fe spectacle can obviously speed cycle between (1) the bravely sobbing martyr, (2) the shallow pretend-friend or (3) the raging pimp slapping his disobedient bitch publicly. The frequent changes in emotional tone is part of the 'symptom', since they would solely depend on what the upset person in the grip of tert Fe judges will provide the most Ego-pay off from moment to moment. Inner drive for detached consistency and realistic consequence-calculation not being the prevalent judgment parameters as long as Ti is muted by tert-Fe on a rampage.

    But of course, one's tertiary doesn't need to take the shape of a destructive tertiary temptation. Done 'right' the contributions of the tertiary should follow and serve, not negate, the Aux in one's type.
    So I agree, that in healthy mixes I too can clearly recognise ENTP social awareness and fluid gentleness as well as INTJ compassion and fierce ethical demands to self.

  4. #54
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    Lenore on tertiary Fe-temptation in ENTPs:
    Tertiary Fe: (1) "I'll lay a guilt trip on this guy, tell him all I've done for him and suggest that the next time he's in a tough spot, he might need my help. (2) Well, hmm, ok, I'll be all friendly. I'll smile, tell him I like him, what a great guy he is. (3) Well, hmm, that's not working, either. Ok, I'll make him look bad in the eyes of his friends."

    The Secondary Function would say: "What is the truth? Not what people would agree is true, not an angle on the truth for making it palatable to someone, but the whole, honest truth?"



    The emotional tone of such tert-Fe spectacle can obviously speed cycle between (1) the bravely sobbing martyr, (2) the shallow pretend-friend or (3) the raging pimp slapping his disobedient bitch publicly. The frequent changes in emotional tone is part of the 'symptom', since they would solely depend on what the upset person in the grip of tert Fe judges will provide the most Ego-pay off from moment to moment. Inner drive for detached consistency and realistic consequence-calculation not being the prevalent judgment parameters as long as Ti is muted by tert-Fe on a rampage.

    But of course, one's tertiary doesn't need to take the shape of a destructive tertiary temptation. Done 'right' the contributions of the tertiary should follow and serve, not negate, the Aux in one's type.
    So I agree, that in healthy mixes I too can clearly recognise ENTP social awareness and fluid gentleness as well as INTJ compassion and fierce ethical demands to self.
    Since you are an authority of Fi, having used it for 35 years, and everyone else can't seem to verbalize or even understand it, do you find it acceptable to also assert a knowledge of Fe - especially since you don't use it?

    I am stating that the 3 phases that you so described can equally pertain to the end result of Fi - the martyr complex, the sobbing, the pimp-slapping - all of these emotional reactions can be done by anyone, of any type. Behavior is not the same as cognitive function.

    Saying the users of Fe don't have genuine and authentic feelings is a gross misunderstanding. Fe can be calculating, sure, but so can any function or person. Just because Fi is "authentic" doesn't mean it's not also self-serving.

    And if you do want to attribute it to function, you have to acknowledge that just seeing the end result does not give you insight into which process was happening internally. I've seen plenty of Fi users with a martyr complex or in a public rage.

    And if Ti can be muted by Fe, can the same thing be said of Fi being muted by Te?

    I think that you certainly do have a solid grasp on what is or isn't Fi, but that doesn't translate to all of the functions, nor the reasons for the behavior of random people you only know through segmented writings on the internet.

  5. #55
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    I find your dismissal of my idea that Fi (amongst doing other things as well) works as a 'visceral' (pre-rule, pre-moral, pre-verbal, pre-analytic etc.) bullshit detector as 'just H&Bs personal feeling' a tad condescending. I've been conscious about having what I now know as 'Fi' since I was five, thus about 35 years. Which does NOT mean 'mastering' it (oh boy, no...).
    I did not dismiss that particular idea so much as refrain from discussing it. The problem is that all the other Fi users have their own subjective understanding of how Fi works for them, we get our subjective feeling of your description, and it doesn't quite jibe, and we're not quite sure why it feels wrong.

    I agree that Fi is "visceral." That is a very very good word for describing it. I'm not so sure that it is a "bullshit detector," so much that it can be a bullshit detector. See the difference? Fe and Ni, in particular, can also be bullshit detectors, just as visceral. Any reasonably sharp person who pays attention to people will develop such skills. The cognitive functions are more about how one would go about developing the skills. For skilled Fi, it is likely as you suggest: a visceral feeling. For skilled Ni, it is an instinctive observation that a pattern suggests bullshit. For skilled Fe, it is simply obvious that someone is dissembling.

    What characterizes Fi isn't what it does, but how it does it. Because it is so visceral, it becomes close to impossible to distinguish from other functions, such as (in my case) Ni. So when I try to communicate what Fi is, I don't talk about what it does, but how to get into the state of mind that most explicitly uses Fi.

    Sorry that I sound harsh, but I feel mocked to the point of just turning my back and not caring anymore having to witness too many inconsistent and phony selfindulging declamations of Fi-ness across the NF-threads.

    So, I focused on the aspect of Fi that will manifest as a nagging - but at first unanalysed - certainty that *something* in what people do and say rings fake. Doing so was firstly because I think it is an important and valuable aspect of Fi, but it was certainly also my intention to make a plea to posters pretending to have Fi, to please turn ON that bullshit detector if they mean business.
    Here is where the trouble comes in. Just because you developed a bullshit detector with your Fi doesn't mean others have. This is as fundamental an error as asserting that if one is an INTJ, one's "best match" is ENFP. MBTI doesn't work like that. Just as MBTI doesn't guarantee that a particular INTJ will get along with a particular ENFP, it doesn't imply that all dom/aux Fi users will have bullshit detectors as you describe.

    Introverted judging preference is, both necessarily as well as in lived life about judging and processing the perceptions of our world on a much more systematic, universal and 'timeless' level than the idea of some arbitrary, artsy or sentimental personal whims suggest. I don't like the reductionism to subjectivist "whatever you like it to be, honey" that I hear in your dismissal. I may have misheard, though. But if not, I'll have to say that I find describing Fi like something excusing personal irresponsibility, to be a fox hole for legitimising unethical behaviour ("It wasn't me, it was my feewings that did it!" :alleged Fi-user hits and runs: ).
    I'm surprised that you would even suggest that I espouse such a view.


    And: if celebrating unethical and irresponsible eulogised action, or irresponsibly vomit one's first arbitrary, sentimentalist and incoherent judgments are supposed to be the core qualities of the functional theoretical "Fi", I've either misunderstood everything or I'm so done with MBTI.
    I believe that at its most immature, Fi often does vomit arbitrary judgments. Undeveloped Fi is just white noise.

    At its most mature, it is an understanding of human, ethical, spiritual truths so deep that it defies explanation. Most statements of such truths tend to be incomplete if stated with precision and clarity, or paradoxical and unclear if stated completely.


    But I agree with you, Uumlau: Fi is in itself certainly not Te-shaped and will easily appear simplifyied and mechanistic when Te'ed.

    What's more, Fi is not word-shaped at all. But neither are electrons. In fact, I suspect that the only wordshaped things in the world are... words.
    Which kind of leaves us with the question: so, do we shut up about the subjective and objective reality or do we keep talking?
    We keep talking, but our descriptions still remain very limited for the reasons I've stated. Electrons are far more objective and empirical than Fi.



    How Fi is like Ti
    I've made similar observations, before, though not in such detail as you have, here. If fully-developed Ti is the abstract theorist/scientist who tries to understand the objective universe, then fully-developed Fi is the "saint" or "monk" or "spiritual teacher" who tries to understand the subjective universe.

    The Nature of Fi

    Fi tends to elude verbal and logical descriptions, much to the frustration of both the Fi-user and his or her audience. This also hampers Fi-users in debate, since they are not always able to clearly explain and defend their deep understanding of the issue at hand.
    Yep.

    Introverted feeling forms principles based on those things that bind all of us together as human beings. It tends to respect the personhood, values and moral agency of the individual.
    Yes and no. This is beginning to mistake the choices one makes for the cognitive function itself. "Ti" is not the same as "logical." "Fi" is not the same as "moral."

    Introverted Feeling is also about harmonizing one thing to another. Actions should be harmonized with principles, deeper purposes and aesthetics. One's daily life should harmonize with one's underlying values. One person can harmonize with the feelings of another to better understand them. Fi can be rather exacting in this respect, leading to an kind of uncompromising and demanding perfectionism.
    Again, yes and no. I think "harmonizing" is a great word to use with Fi. It would be analogous to the Ti drive for "consistency." However, there remains the confusion of the choices one makes with Fi. An individual's Fi "harmonies" could be sublime, or they could be quite dark, indeed.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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