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  1. #41
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Having all this can-could-may-might be called Te is getting annoying. As is the suggestion that Te is any good as an inconsistency checker or even, Lawdy, a moral judge. As is too the wonderful accretion of properties these two-letter signifiers are somehow acquiring.

    Jung said that introverted feeling, like all introverted functions, seeks--and I'm going to use my own verbs here--to partake of the primordial images. It would seem he meant to suggest that all people have some similar basic psychological structure at bottom. And actually, his descriptions of both Fi and Ti are really very ugly. Those functions retain the ability to be judges by repelling and being repelled by "the object". So... seeking the primordial expressions and eschewing the object that gave rise to the seeking...

    There's a great deal to unpack in that and I'm hardly sure if I have it right so far. But there is one point to make, again, about the difference between a cognitive function and, now, a value system. One is the (partial) product of the other. (And we should describe the producer in terms of the product?)


    To sum up, if we don't know what Fi is, we'll be able to describe an INTJ's compassion only in the shallowest surface terms. But it'll be adorable and all.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #42
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I find the effort to coherently, logically, systematically describe Fi, here, to be quite amusing. The final picture of Fi appears to Escheresque, built by unguided Te, and is declared to be a self-consistent system of rules. "Oh, wait, it has to be consistent with this ... and this ... and this ... oh, and this."



    The reason for the error is that neither Ti nor Fi is self-consistent. Rather, there is a drive for a kind self-consistency. Even the terms of the self-consistency are unchosen: even a purely logical Ti is necessarily reliant upon choosing proper initial axioms. And no one's Ti qualifies as "purely logical."

    And that's for Ti, where in the end there is a desire to be consistent with reality.

    For Fi, it's worse. There is nothing objective to which to compare it. We're stuck saying what it's "like", not what it "is." H&B's description is in all likelihood apt for her experience of Fi. The words and descriptions she is applying, however, result from her own subjective understanding and an attempt to turn it into an objective, explainable construct. With every extra detail, it becomes more and more difficult to separate the essential Fi from Fi working with Ne and Te and all the rest.

    I am sensing a bit of bias in various descriptions, an emphasis to indicate that Fi isn't "just mushy feelings", it isn't about "being nice," (I agree with this, btw) but that it is about <deep voice>Values!</deep voice> ... *waits for echo of the deep voice to fade away*

    I believe that values are an intrinsic part of Fi (and Fe), but there is a strong tendency to turn them into objective rulesets, and to detach them from their underlying subjectivity, as if that subjectivity were something to be abhorred. I believe that the "values" that one states are a mere shadow of what is going on in Fi - kind of the best approximation that we can make with words, and if you take them too seriously, you start processing with Te (or Fe, or even Ti), and start arriving at conclusions that may even contradict the real, core Fi.

    Personally, I take what I get from Fi on its own, it has its own voice. Ni has a voice. Te has a voice. Se, when I pay attention, has a voice. When I say what I say, when I do what I do, it is a synthesis of all of these. It is very rare for only a single voice to be expressed, though a single voice might be predominant.

    That's why I use the imagery to "explain Fi." If I add in too much more, the idea is inadvertently communicated that: "explanation of Fi" == "Fi". And then that "explanation of Fi", which is just a projection of Fi into words, proceeds to imply conclusions that eventually contradict Fi. With imagery, however, I can successfully communicate Fi, and then when the analogy is stretched too far, we realize that it is the words, the projection, the image that fails, while the mutual understanding of Fi is maintained.

    [ My next topic is to describe the synthesis, in particular of Te and Fi. Expect a General Relativity analogy. ]
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #43
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post

    To sum up, if we don't know what Fi is, we'll be able to describe an INTJ's compassion only in the shallowest surface terms. But it'll be adorable and all.
    Perhaps this is a reasonable description: Fi is your conscience. We judge based on values, a sense of personal integrity, and what is important to us. We work to understand our emotional reactions and why we are responding in a certain way. It relates to:
    - Our individual values and the perceived values of others
    - Integrity, ethical behavior, discerning what is right from what is wrong
    - Sensing others emotional states by understanding our reactions to them

    Some potential examples of INTJ behavior in relation to this:
    - Using high ethical or moral standards in decision making
    - Mentoring and developing people
    - Sticking up for people we feel have been unfairly treated
    - Sensing the emotions of another person (some combination of Ni/Ti thing going on there) and taking concrete actions to support them
    - Putting the interests of a cause or others ahead of personal interests

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  4. #44
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Oh U, we totally sidetracked your thread. I'm sorry, I am having an Ne day....

    Let me tell you about my most favorite intj in the universe. Oddly the list of people whose respect I desire is quite small, but this intj? Totally. He is my father-in-law who I will just call dad from here on out.

    The first time my ex istp left our first son was a week old. I was 17 and in my first semester at a junior college. My 200 bucks a week waitressing wasn't paying the bills at all. The bills kept slipping and I was starting to panic-and he came over to my house, sat down calmly and explained I would be moving in with him and his family.
    I freaked out-i hate help. Hate it as it comes with emo obligations. I was sort of left without many options and he hardly knew me-yet he was offering to let me live in his house. My plan was to stay two months and get my own place. I lived there for four years while I completed undergrad. I still worked nights and him and his wife would watch my baby. They were his surrogate family while I finished my education so I could support him.

    At first I would try and pay him. He would just give me the stare and say "put your money away". He made me go to church every sunday. He told me when I was doing stupid things. He told me to "never bring a boy like that home again" meaning his son.

    I eventually moved out but while in grad school he would still help now and then-no obligations-he would pissed if I treid to pay him back.

    He isn't just like this with family though. He is very devoted and has taken over preaching at his church. He spends his evenings visiting members of his congregation. I am not at all religious but I really enjoy his sermons-haha, could be the NiTe at work, but they are always full of compassion-strict, full of expectations, demanding, asking much of you-but compassion.

    He now works as a consultant-training-but he takes that same sense of obligation with him to work everyday. He is idealstic-but ina stern noncomprimising way. People will follow him as they sense the ability to lead but also sense that sticking to ideals-that integrity to the best interest for thw whole?? I dunno what this is-these qualities...

    But I see it in most of the older INTJs I have been around. I would follow them off the end of the earth myself.

  5. #45
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The reason for the error is that neither Ti nor Fi is self-consistent. Rather, there is a drive for a kind self-consistency. Even the terms of the self-consistency are unchosen: even a purely logical Ti is necessarily reliant upon choosing proper initial axioms. And no one's Ti qualifies as "purely logical."
    When Jung describes the introverted judging functions they sound really ugly, a mean-spirited dive into the subjective, actively eschewing the object, pushing aside the thing that gives rise to the inner imago. In the pure subjectivist's absence of an attachment to the "object", the subject becomes deeply moribund. There is, it would seem, supposed to be a balancing act performed by any well-adjusted introverted function between retreat from and connection to the object. Hello, extroverted functions.

    The purest self consistency of an introverted function is the total absence of any object. This actually corresponds to a complete absence of objective content within an introverted function. And, necessarily (I guess), just because the objective exists too, this corresponds to an actual emptiness within that function's domain. And that's what introverted functions drive toward! The purest of pure subjects: zero.


    Ergo, though perhaps this is a shallow "ergo", yes, Fi is the INTJ conscience, the subjective balance for objective logic.


    For, what is the content of introverted feeling other than affect. The object, whatever it is, gives rise to affect, cognitively dealt with as subject. Fi, the function, seeks to intensify affect while dismissing object, seeking out the "true" affect. And (if we go along with there actually being a universal unconscious) "true" has something to do with primordial images of "reality".

    What the actual process of the universal unconscious is, is another question. I'm going to say it is some kind of personally created thing. Possibly Jung would not disagree since he said several things about the creators--individuals--being sufficiently similar that they create similar things right down deep in the subconscious.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #46
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    Compassionate INTJs certainly do exist, and at times, I can be very compassionate. I swear sometimes I must turn into an F. I mean, I tend to be logical, but I will try really hard to make those I care about happy and I get really upset when people don't see me as a caring person. My friend once told me I could never be a psychologist because I don't care about others views (an idea she got because I always argue with her (she's almost always wrong)) and I was really sad for a while. Also, people tend to think my arguments are just attacks, which is not true. I just want people to listen or prove me wrong. But alas, this sort of thing is what makes many think INTJs have no souls. But I am truly devoted to my friendships and would be distraught if I were to lose them.

  7. #47
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    My INTJ friend, confirmed is pretty compassionate.. She hides it very well underneath her thick skin.. I never once cried in front of her, but have had her break into tears on me a few times. I was to see how emotional she can get, but yah..

    One thing I truly admire her for are her values. Her actions speak louder than words. Maybe she can look tough on the outside, but underneath that exterior is a person who's truly cares.

    Oh- and I understand her when she gets into the challenge me mode. It's more for shits and giggles and for deeper understanding- not meant to be personal at all. She's very no-nonsense bullshit, kind of person. One of the reasons why I love her.

  8. #48
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    I'm a bit mushy on the inside, I just don't like people to see it. I don't know why it's so uncomfortable for me. I really don't think it's pride or anything, just a genuine discomfort with public displays of emotion and the emotion sometimes causes actual physical pain for me, like a deep aching tension, probably because I fight it. I am also unable to take comfort from people when I do get upset, I just want them to back off. The old scenario of asking someone who's barely holding it together if they're okay and next minute the flood gates open. Please don't open my floodgates! I want them shut! My husband and kids don't think I'm cold and hard, they think I'm soft, well they see the tears well up with the odd soppy movie. Being a T makes it harder for people to manipulate us and that seems like a good thing to me.

  9. #49
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Is this another ENFP trap? I'm not falling for it!

    INTJs are some of the most compassionate people I know.

  10. #50
    Senior Member WoodsWoman's Avatar
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    The people an INTJ includes in their circle of trust are in a very honored place. Just after my husband died his - now my - INTJ friend was incredible in many ways, compassion at it's best. He is one who's respect and good opinion I value highly. It was his influence and presence that spurred me to join INTJforum (I'm more active there).

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