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  1. #21
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Any INTJ with a well developed Fi will be compassionate, period.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  2. #22
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    This is interesting. I think INTP's show compassion precisely in order to get along - not purely selfishly just because my Fe drives me to organize my surroundings according to the need for cohesion and inclusion - I like to see a group function and each person to have a role. It's adaptable to circumstance and I wear it outwardly.

    With the INTJ then it's the opposite I guess, deep attachment to certain values or people which when touched will motivate great compassion, but when not "unleashed", will appear absent.

    So in other words you're all softer on the inside than INTP's? </runs for cover>
    Based on my INTP and ENTP friends, this is a very accurate summary, including the INTJs are "all softer on the inside than INTPs." Our inner, subjective core is emotional. When things happen that "should" inspire emotion, we either react with all of our being, or none of it. Reacting emotionally to mundane social events is thus either extremely wearing (because when we feel, we feel), or very "fake" (thus making us feel icky and insincere). Because we prefer the thinking, analytical approach, it becomes easy and practiced to both seem unaffected (when the emotions are strong), or more usually to actually be unaffected by events that would upset others. Te just comes to the fore and analyzes, and if a solution is found, the Fi side is calm and unworried.

    What happens in later life is that the control of the Fi is more precise, shall we say. It's hard to describe how utterly intense the emotions are, because our whole being is affected. (I believe Fe, while it still feels emotions, is more practiced at feeling them as somewhat apart from oneself. I don't do Fe, so this is mostly speculation based on my Te understanding.) However, with a degree of self-control, it's possible to focus and set the "Fi-level" to something appropriate. An analogy would be using biofeedback to control one's own heart rate. With this control, I can show warmth and affection without being so intense that it's creepy, or so clunky and awkward as when controlled by Te.

    The difficulty of reaching this level of control of Fi is that one has to expose oneself to that potential level of pain and uncontrolled emotion, and then master it. It's impossible to just stick in your toe: you get sucked in. After getting sucked in, you learn to steady yourself within that turmoil of emotions: that even as you feel the pain (or even as you feel oh so intense a love/infatuation, which can be even worse), you learn to ride it out. After going through it, and processing it, and understanding it, you own it. Rather than fearing it, you embrace it.

    It is a trial by fire that I suspect every INTJ spends years and decades avoiding, and thus remain cold and hard on the outside.

    So yeah, for a young INTJ, we're way softer on the inside than INTPs, which is why we always seem so hard. Very very few people get to see that soft side. For an older INTJ, "soft" is no longer an apt description. It is "gentle," but ferociously strong. It is only by being strong, internally, that we can even be gentle.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #23
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What happens in later life is that the control of the Fi is more precise, shall we say. It's hard to describe how utterly intense the emotions are, because our whole being is affected. (I believe Fe, while it still feels emotions, is more practiced at feeling them as somewhat apart from oneself. I don't do Fe, so this is mostly speculation based on my Te understanding.) However, with a degree of self-control, it's possible to focus and set the "Fi-level" to something appropriate. An analogy would be using biofeedback to control one's own heart rate. With this control, I can show warmth and affection without being so intense that it's creepy, or so clunky and awkward as when controlled by Te.

    The difficulty of reaching this level of control of Fi is that one has to expose oneself to that potential level of pain and uncontrolled emotion, and then master it. It's impossible to just stick in your toe: you get sucked in. After getting sucked in, you learn to steady yourself within that turmoil of emotions: that even as you feel the pain (or even as you feel oh so intense a love/infatuation, which can be even worse), you learn to ride it out. After going through it, and processing it, and understanding it, you own it. Rather than fearing it, you embrace it.

    It is a trial by fire that I suspect every INTJ spends years and decades avoiding, and thus remain cold and hard on the outside.

    So yeah, for a young INTJ, we're way softer on the inside than INTPs, which is why we always seem so hard. Very very few people get to see that soft side. For an older INTJ, "soft" is no longer an apt description. It is "gentle," but ferociously strong. It is only by being strong, internally, that we can even be gentle.












    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #24
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Pansies.


    When will people learn, Fi isn't feeling. Having a feeling is but a single item in Fi, while Fi itself is a value system generated off the back of various affective experiences. Naturally of course, actual feelings will take Fi itself as a guide as it gets better at deciding, so there is some ongoing, generative relationship. But meanwhile, all this having of feelings crap that people call the soft insides... you'll be soooooorry.

    Or something like that. But there is some whole thing to go on about here on the difference between a cognitive function and an affective state.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #25
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    When will people learn, Fi isn't feeling. Having a feeling is but a single item in Fi,
    true ...
    while Fi itself is a value system generated off the back of various affective experiences.
    Sort of true, but so damn abstract that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how true it is, it doesn't translate into anything concrete enough to share between people.

    Let's just say that Fi is a lot more than "a value system." There's a reason I resort to metaphors when discussing Fi. If the metaphor works, I show others the path to get there and understand it for themselves. If I explain it as "a value system," they get all concrete and think it's a set of rules like the ten commandments, which is so far from the truth I may as well be telling stories about the Great Pumpkin.

    Naturally of course, actual feelings will take Fi itself as a guide as it gets better at deciding, so there is some ongoing, generative relationship. But meanwhile, all this having of feelings crap that people call the soft insides... you'll be soooooorry.
    Yes, there is a difference between "being emotional" and "Fi." I believe, however, it is accurate to say that "Fi" is largely one's ability to process, to comprehend, to own one's emotions, in general. As a tertiary for INTJ, it starts off as the ability to just silence one's own emotions and decide, in an Fi way, that logic is the proper course of action, at which point, all one's decisions, for good or ill, go through Te.


    Or something like that. But there is some whole thing to go on about here on the difference between a cognitive function and an affective state.
    Don't get so lost in the words that you miss the message being sent. Language is extremely limited in expressing these ideas. I'm trying to make words jump and play tricks for which they were never intended. I'd use Zen koans, but that would just result in more confusion, and I'd use poetry, but then I'd have to change my name from "uumlau" to "Vogon."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Sort of true, but so damn abstract that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how true it is...
    +1!

    Damn, fool!!

    You just got pimp-slapped by UUMLAU!!!

  7. #27
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    ^ was that Fi speaking?!?


  8. #28
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    true ...

    Sort of true, but so damn abstract that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how true it is, it doesn't translate into anything concrete enough to share between people.

    Let's just say that Fi is a lot more than "a value system." There's a reason I resort to metaphors when discussing Fi. If the metaphor works, I show others the path to get there and understand it for themselves. If I explain it as "a value system," they get all concrete and think it's a set of rules like the ten commandments, which is so far from the truth I may as well be telling stories about the Great Pumpkin.
    Fair enough, I guess.

    How about "subjective evaluation system"?

    The existence of a positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly, as it were. Its aim is not so much to accommodate to the objective fact as to stand above it, since its whole unconscious effort is to give reality to the underlying images. It is, as it were, continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but of which it has had a sort of previous vision.

    Seems to me that all the introverted functions do more than simply contain the items of that function. There is also some kind of inner generative thing going on. In the case of introverted feeling, one presumes it is values that are generated. Felt values. So Fi is as affective as feeling itself. Somehow. But seemingly, often, more as a goal than as currently gooey inside.

    Yes, there is a difference between "being emotional" and "Fi." I believe, however, it is accurate to say that "Fi" is largely one's ability to process, to comprehend, to own one's emotions, in general.
    Dunno. That sounds like an Fi value rather than Fi itself. For instance, that statement doesn't make a difference between Fe and Fi feeling.

    Quite possibly--well, in fact notoriously--introverted feeling is difficult to label or directly express. Art and whatnot is needed. But as to what Fi is... it's a cognitive function, perhaps no more opaque than any of the others when it comes to making up a definition. (Within existing model theory, that is.)




    I am of course just making all this up, but surely if F is to be a judgment function, for example one that provokes compassion, then there is more to it than "I had a feeling."





    "Pimp-slapped"? Isn't being too abstract a point of pride? I'll have to adjust my notions of praise.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    "Pimp-slapped"? Isn't being too abstract a point of pride? I'll have to adjust my notions of praise.
    I think direct-and-to-the-pointedness is much more deserving of pride than over-abstractness...


  10. #30
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    (... he says, finishing the sentence with ellipsis.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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