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View Poll Results: INTP's Amoral or Immoral

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  • Amoral

    17 68.00%
  • Immoral

    10 40.00%
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  1. #21
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    So what about if you're aware of general socially agreed morals, and can appear to adhere to them, but this is more out of your own sense of what's rational/useful/constructive and what isn't, as opposed to any firm sense of things being right/wrong, good/bad?

    What are you then? Is it just that your moral centre is staked around the concept of utility, a valuing of constructiveness and efficiency/efficacy, rather than around the concept of what's good for people, makes them happy, avoids harm to others etc.?

    The two can overlap... at least in appearance. A person who never really thinks or cares about what's "right" or "good" might still appear to be doing right, doing good. Does this mean they're moral?
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  2. #22
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    As far as I can tell, NTPs in general usually have an amoral attitude (rules lack inherent validity). NTJs, on the other hand, tend to have an immoral one (rules are for the little people).
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Excuse me?

    Is there any rational basis to what you've said that you care to explain? Or maybe some way you'd like to qualify your statement or define amorality to show how your definition differs from what is stated above, contextually?
    If I read the definiton correctly, amoral means you have no sense of morals and are not bound by any moral rules, conscience for example. That would mean that if an amoral person were to see an opportunity to ruin someones life to get what they want, they would not hesitate.

    Immoral I can understand.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodgrief View Post
    If I read the definiton correctly, amoral means you have no sense of morals and are not bound by any moral rules, conscience for example. That would mean that if an amoral person were to see an opportunity to ruin someones life to get what they want, they would not hesitate.
    Then you don't get INTPs.

    I think it was clarified various times in this thread that INTPs actually have a rational structure for what they do -- and those who have said "amoral" mean "amoral in the sense of not seeing inherent value in following someone ELSE's and/or conventional standards, if they do not make rational sense."

    In other words, INTPs are tightly bound to what seems rational in a situation, not what is conventionally moral.
    But that's not psychopathic.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Then you don't get INTPs.

    I think it was clarified various times in this thread that INTPs actually have a rational structure for what they do -- and those who have said "amoral" mean "amoral in the sense of not seeing inherent value in following someone ELSE's and/or conventional standards, if they do not make rational sense."

    In other words, INTPs are tightly bound to what seems rational in a situation, not what is conventionally moral.
    But that's not psychopathic.
    What is rational can and almost always does include a sense of what is morally right. This is because in general, doing something that is moral means that it benefits the world as a whole, and has a greater net gain than net loss. Therefore, I don't think I misunderstand INTPs, I think YOU misunderstand the meaning of amoral, which I have posted already and clearly states absence of any moral code. Don't tell me INTPs do not feel they should, say, refuse to kill someone for a bit of cash. If someone were to do that, THAT would be amoral.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodgrief View Post
    Don't tell me INTPs do not feel they should, say, refuse to kill someone for a bit of cash. If someone were to do that, THAT would be amoral.
    That could be either of them because they either (and, most likely, as you described most people do) know the differences between what is wrong and what is right and know that it would be wrong but don't care, which would be immoral. Or if we look at your "a bit of cash", and most likely you mean a small amount, then it could be amoral (I'm assuming nobody would kill anyone for a small amount of wealth).
    And yes everyone, the general definition of a psychopath is that the person chemically (in the brain lol) doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.
    OK but aside from the given definition of psychopath (I'm doing this because, I think, if somebody trained themselves to not care their whole lives then they could possibly literally "not care") I think we can say that Amoral and Immoral are the same thing altogether, because..
    1- They are essentially the same anyways
    2- If you don't agree with something that you know (you would possibly have to know it to disagree with it) is assumed to be "right" you would be considered immoral, but
    3- You could also argue (this only works if you admit that you "know" the topic, and if you don't your either a liar (step 4), or you've never left your house that's in the hills, your entire life (step 5)) that you don't "feel" any moral value in the topic, whatever the topic may be, and then could also be considered Amoral.
    4- If you are a liar; you are so confused by society's morals and your own that you cannot, and will not, potentially admit to being a psychopath (which you are not)
    5- If you have not learned or heard anyone say anything about what is right and what is wrong then you are still not a psychopath you just need some learnin' so you can make up your own mind, and either way you go you would still not be a psychopath (we do not consider small children to be psychopaths)
    And this is why I now consider them to be the same.
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  7. #27
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    I'm neither. I believe in mroal relativsm: the end justifies the means if there is something that justifies the end (Trotsky quote).

    I don't think this makes me either amoral or immoral I think it's in fact the only genuinely moral morality (as I would, else I would adhere to another one).
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I'm neither. I believe in moral relativism: the end justifies the means if there is something that justifies the end (Trotsky quote).

    I don't think this makes me either amoral or immoral I think it's in fact the only genuinely moral morality (as I would, else I would adhere to another one).
    This is exactly how I think of things.. Logically not emotionally (others may disagree maybe even you, but I think that is exactly what that quote is trying to say).
    I like this quote of yours, I think it goes perfectly along with my summation that Immoral and Amoral are the same things. You either do or you don't and there is no Grey areas that society creates.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member groovejet02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    What I've seen, in my husband at least, is a very strong set of morals that may or may not line up with other people's concepts of morality. IMO his moral code is superior to most people's and he follows his own code a lot more than most people do.

    He will comply with people's expectations up to a point in order to avoid the hassle that goes along with making waves, but not much more than that.
    Exactly. I notice this in myself and most INTPs I know as well.

  10. #30
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olly_olly View Post
    This is exactly how I think of things.. Logically not emotionally (others may disagree maybe even you, but I think that is exactly what that quote is trying to say).
    I like this quote of yours, I think it goes perfectly along with my summation that Immoral and Amoral are the same things. You either do or you don't and there is no Grey areas that society creates.
    Well maybe we are just saying the same thing but with different definitions.

    I think for example that you can have a logical i.e. scientific morality. We're a common species and we should work for the collective benefit of our species because together this will improve all our welfare and that of our children. This is materially possible you can show on paper and in practice how it can work.

    I don't think this is the same as traditional morality at all but neither is it "amoral" IMO. But if someone wants to call it amoral that doesn't really bother me.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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