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  1. #41
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    I was reading this thread of 'what do you like about feelers' and one complaint is that there is a tendency to not be logical in arguments, make emotional appeals, or base their decisions on their emotions.

    So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?
    Actually, yes. INTJs do it all the time, to a fault, to the point that they believe they have no emotions, or believe that they aren't influenced by them. To be sure, when the emotions are strong enough, there is no "stepping away," but it is certainly possible to cultivate a level of detachment that allows one to do so for most issues.

    This line: "I am being more rational than you" - may be an illusion for your rationality is just a set of learned ways of interacting that appear to lack emotion,
    To say "I am being more rational than you" is not a rational thing to say. It is not an objective observation, but a subjective, personal criticism.

    HOWEVER! are not all decisions/arguments ultimately moral and emotional ones?
    Hardly. This is the one statement you make that I believe is absolutely false, unless you define yourself into tautology, by saying that "wanting to be objective and rational" is an emotional/moral desire.

    TO put it in a strong way: I think people are fooling themselves if they think in life they are making 'clean' decisions, 'unemotional' arguments, or undertaking entire 'rational' courses of action.
    I believe it is a matter of degree. Individuals have varying degrees of skill with respect to detaching oneself from one's emotional biases. Most of the social problems of INTJs derive from being very good at this. Also, certain matters are more obviously fully objective considerations than others, e.g., verifying objective facts often has no emotional content whatsoever, while deciding whether you want to say "yes" to a marriage proposal would have very few objective considerations.

    What you say is not without a degree of truth, that many people fool themselves. But you will be fooling yourself if you apply the principle to all people. There is a tendency on the part of F's to misread NTs in this regard, imputing motives based on one's own values, rather than recognizing that some people actually make decisions based on factual considerations and minimize if not altogether eliminate the emotional considerations.

  2. #42
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?

    Just tell me one thing first.


    What is your definition of "emotions" ?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    do you wish to elaborate on this? personally, i'm very interested in this subject.
    Basically as there is no objective morality or values one can construct their values and morality from whatever one wants like emotion while still being rational as morals cannot be correct or incorrect except in the context of another system of reality. Emotion does not also make one irrational by its very nature. It is when emotion is used to create a model of how the world works, budging into the realm of objective reality, that it is inherently irrational.

    It is not irrational to hate seeing death. It is irrational to disbelieve in evolution as it involves so much death. It is not irrational to value freedom because you don't like seeing people be oppressed. It is irrational to believe that the middle ages didn't happen because of this.

  4. #44
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    yeah, as well as...

    it is not irrational to feel that you want to be always right. it is irrational to always believe that you're right.

  5. #45
    Member eternal recurrence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Hardly. This is the one statement you make that I believe is absolutely false, unless you define yourself into tautology, by saying that "wanting to be objective and rational" is an emotional/moral desire.


    What you say is not without a degree of truth, that many people fool themselves. But you will be fooling yourself if you apply the principle to all people. There is a tendency on the part of F's to misread NTs in this regard, imputing motives based on one's own values, rather than recognizing that some people actually make decisions based on factual considerations and minimize if not altogether eliminate the emotional considerations.
    Yes i'm defining myself into tautology I completely believe that ""wanting to be objective and rational" is an emotional/moral desire."

    I should say also that I wasnt thinking about MBTI when posting this - it was just a thought about how people think about the human mind in general spurred by a thread...nonetheless, i disagree. What i'm postulating is that when someone thinks that they make decisions based on factual considerations and possibly eliminate emotional considerations that this seems like a delusion to me & I think some other posts in the thread side with this assertion and explain it much more eloquently than i can.

    Put better than I could:

    Quote Originally Posted by durentu View Post
    All decisions contain emotions, regardless of what that person believes. Even psychopaths
    All decision involve moral/ethics if it interacts with another human, regardless if it's wise.

    To make decisions that are clean, rational, and unemotional is a misnomer. In most cases, what they really mean to say that the decisions are without empathy.
    Btw these replies have helped me think though this issue... so thanks.

  6. #46
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    Yes i'm defining myself into tautology I completely believe that ""wanting to be objective and rational" is an emotional/moral desire."
    I agree with you, here, actually.

    Note that giving the tautological nature of the statement, it is still not reasonable to conclude that objectivity does not exist, but only that the reasons for choosing to be objective are not themselves objective.

    I should say also that I wasnt thinking about MBTI when posting this - it was just a thought about how people think about the human mind in general spurred by a thread...nonetheless, i disagree. What i'm postulating is that when someone thinks that they make decisions based on factual considerations and possibly eliminate emotional considerations that this seems like a delusion to me & I think some other posts in the thread side with this assertion and explain it much more eloquently than i can.
    The real question is whether one who has decided to be objective (for emotional reasons) actually is more or less objective. That is to say, it's possible to read too much into someone's statements/actions, when that person's focus is on trying to objectively process things, but when you translate it into your personal context, it's easy to read things that aren't really there.

    Such a person might choose to do action A, which really really offends you, when to you, action B would be a much more considerate choice and reach the same objective. It is easy to conclude, especially if there is other history or context, that the person chose action A in order to spite you. You might even be right. My point is that such conclusions are often wrong: that the only "impure emotion" involved is the desire to be objective.

  7. #47
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    but even if you don't let the "streams" affect you much in decision making, don't you still think "the lake" is affecting it?

    it's easy to read people wrong, especially people who don't show much emotion...

  8. #48
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    yes, thank you. do you mind if i quote you elsewhere?
    not a problem, just let me know where you quote me.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    I was reading this thread of 'what do you like about feelers' and one complaint is that there is a tendency to not be logical in arguments, make emotional appeals, or base their decisions on their emotions.

    So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?

    This line: "I am being more rational than you" - may be an illusion for your rationality is just a set of learned ways of interacting that appear to lack emotion, HOWEVER! are not all decisions/arguments ultimately moral and emotional ones?

    TO put it in a strong way: I think people are fooling themselves if they think in life they are making 'clean' decisions, 'unemotional' arguments, or undertaking entire 'rational' courses of action.
    people have different preference. some are more comfortable and find it easier to follow reasoning while others are more comfortable and find it easier to follow feelings. 'reasoning' is implicitly understood as logical. feelings/emotions are like gravity. everyone experiences them and knows the effect of them but noone understands the how or the why. feelings ARE logical, its just that the logic associate with feelings is not readily understood by most.

    pure reason and pure feeling will result in the same conclusion. its just that 'pure' can be translated to 'mature' in the everyday world.
    and as we all see in the modern world, not a lot of people are that 'mature' or even at that level of consciousness that requires separating the self (ego) from the situation and listen to those feeling unadulterated.

    ive mostly seen the contrary demonstrated by INFJs

  10. #50
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    For a feeler, comforting a person that's emotionally hurt by saying "Everything is going to be alright." is rational behaviour.
    How is the decision made by the feeler in this case considered an emotional one? Yes, the feeler is empathizing and trying to make the other person feel better, but what emotion is driving the feeler to do this?
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