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  1. #11
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    But my actual interest is in the implications of this. If rationality, as we speak about it, or imagine it to function (e.g. as non-emotion), is an illusion...then what?

    For instance, I think we could take any scientific research and find a moral basis for it although this starting point is not discussed. Just like in conversation where someone makes a claim as if it is self-evident or does not represent a value/as if it is non-emotional. Yes yes yes - there are facts and values - I'm talking about the impetus for (and our interaction within) a conversation or a programme... how we think about what impels our words or actions. Ya and im conflating morals and emotions but is that a problem?
    why should that be a problem? it makes things more complicated, if you realize that things can't totally be taken apart, but for me that is what it is. the next question is what to do with what is? i use logic as my primary and "emotional logic" as secondary... just because there is this complexity we don't quite understand, doesn't mean we should be discouraged by it. collectively we are well equipped to deal with this and are constantly evolving.

    this is a vague statement, but something to think about, perhaps...

  2. #12
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    The base values we start with are arbitrary and can be handled by emotions but the way we move from these to our choices and actions is not and should be handled by rationality. Emotions don't preclude rationality but filtering what is rather than simply what ought to be through them instead of rationality is.

  3. #13
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedom geek View Post
    Emotions don't preclude rationality but filtering what is rather than simply what ought to be through them instead of rationality is.
    do you wish to elaborate on this? personally, i'm very interested in this subject.

  4. #14
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
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    The separation between emotion and rationality is a myth.
    Please prove the number of Mersenne primes with your emotions alone.

    As much as I hate rationalizations, not all reasons are rationalizations. That we're prone to making rationalizations only shows the importance of eliminating bias via impersonal methods when arriving at truth, e.g. an experimental set-up, a mathematical demonstration, etc.

  5. #15
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I agree with the concept that is provided within the context of this topic.

    An F, being totally emotional, would be in their own perspective, acting rationally. Thus, emotion and rationality are not mutually exclusive, from a single perspective.

    That which makes the rational NT's, rational. Is that we try not to rely on incomplete information and variables. And go only on that which we know to be true.

    The seperation of rationals and non-rationals, has nothing to do with being emotional or not emotional. Rather, it has to do with how we reach our conclusions and descisions.

    Rationals see problems in everything, non rationals take many things for granted. Both may take the same course of action, but only the rational would be aware of it.

    So what defines rationality in NT's, is not the fact that we are more rational than others per se. But that we define ourselves by using rational factors to the best of our ability while making descisions, consciously.

    So, whilest everyone can be considered rational from their perspective. NT Rationals are the ones that do so proactively.
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  6. #16
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    i disagree to an extent. i have witnessed rationals using "false logic", because they aren't aware that they also sometimes, to an extent, come to conclusions based on their beliefs (which are affected by feelings). they sometimes deny their feelings, which is something a feeler can intuitively sense. still, rationals strive to be rational in their approach, which is admirable. sometimes i wish they'd put a little effort to the feeling department, though. i don't see why these human behaviors should be mutually exclusive.

    this is up for debate, though.

  7. #17
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    I was reading this thread of 'what do you like about feelers' and one complaint is that there is a tendency to not be logical in arguments, make emotional appeals, or base their decisions on their emotions.

    So heres a question: Do you think its possible to actually step away/remove ourselves from 'emotions' when looking at an issue?

    This line: "I am being more rational than you" - may be an illusion for your rationality is just a set of learned ways of interacting that appear to lack emotion, HOWEVER! are not all decisions/arguments ultimately moral and emotional ones?

    TO put it in a strong way: I think people are fooling themselves if they think in life they are making 'clean' decisions, 'unemotional' arguments, or undertaking entire 'rational' courses of action.
    I would agree to the extent that it is altogether impossible to separate motivations and goals from emotions. There is no inherent meaning to our lives, thus there is no such thing as a rational goal: We pick an outcome we desire because we like it better than the alternative. Beyond that, however, it is indeed possible to be rational and objective in making a choice, which is most evident when we make a choice we don't like because we consider it necessary.
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  8. #18
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    ^ but why do we concider it necessary? is it because we are in fact using our feelings/ beliefs and logic to predict the outcome?

  9. #19
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    OP:

    First I'm throwing MBTI into the wind and talking about humans in general. I'm willing to bet that many people don't have the slightest idea what T/F preferences actually mean. (ref: Psychological Types: Jung)

    It is not possible to be involved in any issue without some emotive response. I speak in the neurological context. If you have zero emotive response, it would not enter your consciousness, therefore you would not have the mental activations to engage an issue and summon your cognitive faculties. If there is no emotive response, then you are indifferent to it and it would appear it would have never existed.

    Illustrative thought: How many steps does it take for you to get to the bathroom? Do you know for sure? Did you really count? Why not? (less OCD).

    Rationalization is not synonymous with truth. It is at best an opinion or a belief. If rationalization was indeed truth, there would be no need for peer reviewed journals at all.

    This, along with "I'm more rational than you" is a delusion and a logical fallacy. Specifically that of 'begging the question' or petitio principii.

    While it's not possible to remove emotions from an argument, there are tools to make a strong case. You start with a rationalization, then you work to remove all the objections and you arrive at some sort of truth.

    All decisions contain emotions, regardless of what that person believes. Even psychopaths
    All decision involve moral/ethics if it interacts with another human, regardless if it's wise.

    To make decisions that are clean, rational, and unemotional is a misnomer. In most cases, what they really mean to say that the decisions are without empathy.

  10. #20
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    No life decision can be purely rational because people are going to have attitudes and preferences which are based in emotion that influence their rational choices. It's impossible for a human being to be 100% unbiased. Even people who routinely completely discount emotion in their decision making could in the long run be making irrational choices for themselves, because feelings and relationships are a vital part of the human experience, and to attempt to completely do without those things is absurd and illogical based upon the very make-up of the human social animal, and the adult need for companionship and sex.

    I like what lucky said as well.

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