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  1. #21
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Btw I don't think anyone could really claim that National Socialism claimed to be for the benefit of "all humanity" as it clearly stated that some parts of humanity should enslave others...
    It is to the benefit of all humanity if you think of the human collective as analogous to the human body (which fascism does, that's why it's also called "corporatism").

    In their minds, the Aryan race, as the "master race", was to serve as the head of the body of humanity, directing, judging and engaging in intellectual activity. The inferior races were to serve as the hands, arms, torso, legs and feet of the body, toiling away to provide sustenance to the Aryan head, which required the heaviest resource load, just as the brain requires by far the highest density of bodily nourishment. Jews, dissenters, homosexuals, and other classes of people were seen as cancerous parasites that needed to be removed to make the body of humanity healthy once again.

    It does act "to the betterment of humanity". It just doesn't care one bit about humans as individuals.

  2. #22
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Oh, really?
    Hitler was an obvious NFJ. His entire strategy for winning people over to his cause was pure Fe. In fact, his cause itself was pure Fe--"my tribal group needs to be returned to its former glory and I will use people's feelings of obligation to this group in order to recruit them for my cause."


    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    A lot of INTJ's are impressive; namely the ones involved in projects for the betterment of humanity.
    Excellent point.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #23
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It is to the benefit of all humanity if you think of the human collective as analogous to the human body (which fascism does, that's why it's also called "corporatism").

    In their minds, the Aryan race, as the "master race", was to serve as the head of the body of humanity, directing, judging and engaging in intellectual activity. The inferior races were to serve as the hands, arms, torso, legs and feet of the body, toiling away to provide sustenance to the Aryan head, which required the heaviest resource load, just as the brain requires by far the highest density of bodily nourishment. Jews, dissenters, homosexuals, and other classes of people were seen as cancerous parasites that needed to be removed to make the body of humanity healthy once again.

    It does act "to the betterment of humanity". It just doesn't care one bit about humans as individuals.
    I disagree. National Socialism (not exactly the same as fascism as not all fascism is White Supremacist) divides humanity up into races and believes Aryans should rule over the others.

    this is very different to seeing humanity as a collective whole which can be benefitted.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #24
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I disagree. National Socialism (not exactly the same as fascism as not all fascism is White Supremacist) divides humanity up into races and believes Aryans should rule over the others.

    this is very different to seeing humanity as a collective whole which can be benefitted.
    That's only part of the picture. Racial superiority is only half of the NSDAP philosophy. Europe as one body of man was the other.

    It is collectivism inverted upon itself to become racial self-love, and ultimately individual self-love through identification with the Volk. Rather than seeing other ethnic collectives as their own integral bodies, worthy of self-determination and equality, it sees them as simply extensions of the master race's collective consciousness. That's why the Nazis were so grandiose in their ideology - they constantly had a need to compensate, because the massive psychological trauma inflicted by the loss of status in the vindictive and capricious Treaty of Versailles, combined with Germany's previously shattered and fragmented history, created a pervasive sense of worthlessness as a people (this particularly explains the hypernationalism of Bavaria: the region that was "supposed" to be the heart of the United Germany including Austria, but found its rightful role usurped by the upstart Prussians.)

    The concept of the Family of Europe isn't an entirely inaccurate one. It's very compelling to see the various nations as siblings fighting for the attention of Father God, capricious and spiteful, demanding all the attention for himself.

  5. #25
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    The INTJ response in Perelman's situation is to accept the million, deal with the ceremony and honor as a means to an end, and then use the million to improve the world. He strikes me as more INTP. Also, pure math in general is more INTP than INTJ- its rather useless (if extremely beautiful) stuff.

  6. #26
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That's only part of the picture. Racial superiority is only half of the NSDAP philosophy. Europe as one body of man was the other.

    It is collectivism inverted upon itself to become racial self-love, and ultimately individual self-love through identification with the Volk. Rather than seeing other ethnic collectives as their own integral bodies, worthy of self-determination and equality, it sees them as simply extensions of the master race's collective consciousness. That's why the Nazis were so grandiose in their ideology - they constantly had a need to compensate, because the massive psychological trauma inflicted by the loss of status in the vindictive and capricious Treaty of Versailles, combined with Germany's previously shattered and fragmented history, created a pervasive sense of worthlessness as a people (this particularly explains the hypernationalism of Bavaria: the region that was "supposed" to be the heart of the United Germany including Austria, but found its rightful role usurped by the upstart Prussians.)

    The concept of the Family of Europe isn't an entirely inaccurate one. It's very compelling to see the various nations as siblings fighting for the attention of Father God, capricious and spiteful, demanding all the attention for himself.
    ok, this is interesting but I think it's a big stretch to cliam from this that the problem with Nazism was some kind of "collective" view of humnaity, rather than its view of racial domination. Even if we accept that "collectivism" or whatever you want to call it, was a central part of National Socialist ideology, it doesn't therefore follow that any "collective" ideology will lead to similair consequences.

    My understanding of fascism si that it is the last resort of capitalism, when the capitalists are prepared to sacrifice large setors of their own class and cede political power to a small clique, in order to defeat the revolutionary threat and get the economy running again.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #27
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    ok, this is interesting but I think it's a big stretch to cliam from this that the problem with Nazism was some kind of "collective" view of humnaity, rather than its view of racial domination. Even if we accept that "collectivism" or whatever you want to call it, was a central part of National Socialist ideology, it doesn't therefore follow that any "collective" ideology will lead to similair consequences.
    You're right. Such an assertion would be unfairly broad. I'll make sure to more clearly distinguish fascism's particular form of collectivism from broader collectivism in the future.

    My understanding of fascism si that it is the last resort of capitalism, when the capitalists are prepared to sacrifice large setors of their own class and cede political power to a small clique, in order to defeat the revolutionary threat and get the economy running again.
    Well, that belies the myth of capitalist individualism, doesn't it?

  8. #28
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicheck View Post
    The INTJ response in Perelman's situation is to accept the million, deal with the ceremony and honor as a means to an end, and then use the million to improve the world. He strikes me as more INTP. Also, pure math in general is more INTP than INTJ- its rather useless (if extremely beautiful) stuff.
    Agreed. (Except for the part about improving the world.)

    Perelman has INTP beard.
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  9. #29
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You're right. Such an assertion would be unfairly broad. I'll make sure to more clearly distinguish fascism's particular form of collectivism from broader collectivism in the future.



    Well, that belies the myth of capitalist individualism, doesn't it?
    Certainly does.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    You guys seem to be confusing capitalism with some form of capitalistic oligarchy.

    ...which is yet another kind of antithesis of capitalism.

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