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  1. #1
    Senior Member hermeticdancer's Avatar
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    Default Take me through your logic process, curious

    I want to understand how the individual logic process works, NT types. What are the processes you go to think things through, are you contious of them? How do I become a more developed thinker? What is the value in this over feeling do you think? Does anyone not value emotion as much as thinking? What does it mean anyway to have thinking over feeling, and do you think it is better? Can you make value judgments, with reason?

  2. #2
    brainheart
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    That is a lot of questions.

    I don't seem to be conscious of it, I don't think (hee).

    More developed thinker: think more.

    Value over feeling, as a process: none. It's just how I roll.

    I have plenty of emotion, it just seems to come from atypical things. For example, I was just watching a documentary on Frank Lloyd Wright and the astounding beauty he created from geometric shapes got me teary eyed.

    Value judgments, with reason? Absolutely, that's how I do it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    there's a piece missing here

    does this fit? no, but the answer is probably related...

    does this fit? no, but I feel I'm on the right track...

    what if I moved this piece over here...hmm, not a very elegant solution...

    what if I switch these two p- no, that's just stupid...

    does this fit? no...

    does this fit? kind of!

    does it fit with this? no...

    wait!



    IT FITSSSSSSSSS



    ...

    there's a piece missing here...
    Hello

  4. #4
    Senior Member hermeticdancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    That is a lot of questions.


    Value over feeling, as a process: none. It's just how I roll.

    I have plenty of emotion, it just seems to come from atypical things. For example, I was just watching a documentary on Frank Lloyd Wright and the astounding beauty he created from geometric shapes got me teary eyed.

    Value judgments, with reason? Absolutely, that's how I do it.
    So do you get emotional from being inspired. Like the beauty, in the film, you are talking about? I get some emotion from being inspired by moving musical pieces, or people who overcome great barriers, and don't ask for much. Also the moon, when it is full, and orange and low on the horizon, makes me in awe, it takes my breath away. It makes me so feel so humble and appreciate life. It makes me feel connected to life.

    What do you mean, value over feeling?

    what do the two mean by def to you?

  5. #5
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    bonus illustration:

    [youtube=pxOdU1r0V2g]Making the pieces fit[/youtube]
    Hello

  6. #6
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermeticdancer View Post
    What do you mean, value over feeling?
    Oops, I meant 'value thinking over feeling'- no, I do not. It's just that my thinking comes more naturally to me, that doesn't mean I value those with a feeling preference less. It is necessary for there to be a balance between the two in the world. That's part of the reason why I am married to someone with the feeling preference. We complement each other, and together make better informed decisions.

  7. #7
    Senior Member hermeticdancer's Avatar
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    Maybe I should also ask how do you make sound value judgments with reason?
    I know I haven't given any examples, maybe someone could think of one.

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Let's say that I run a small business with 5 employees plus myself. 3 of my employees are not really my friends (I didn't know them when I hired them), 2 of them were friends of mine at the time I hired them. Anyhow, the 6 of us have been hard at work as a team for 2 years. Overall, we make a great team and things run fairly smoothly.

    In terms of individual performance, 1 of my friends is late to work a lot and tends to spend a little too much time on the internet during work hours. I've talked to him about it many times and he improves for a short period of time and then reverts to his old behavior.

    1 of my "non-friends" calls out sick too much. It's a bit excessive, but she has many other good attributes that she brings to the table.

    The other 3 employees I have no real complaints with. They are great employees.

    The economy falls upon hard times, revenue decreases significantly, and we are now running a deficit each month. We are losing money. It's costing me money every month just to keep the doors open.

    My logical process goes something like this. And it doesn't happen as "robotically" as it may sound when I type it out. It happens very quickly and fluidly in my mind. I just know right away what needs to be done.

    Step 1: Logically, I know that this can't continue for very long. Bankruptcy is not an option I want to consider.

    Step 2: Since I know this can't continue, I know I have to cut costs somehow - someway. It's an absolute necessity.

    Step 3: Since I no longer *need* the assistance of 5 people, it doesn't make sense to pay 5 people. That's just money I'm losing and the business is losing. If I continue to pay 5 people at this rate, then all 6 of us will soon be out of work.

    Step 4: It follows that somebody has to go. I don't want to do it, I feel bad to some extent, but I can't feel bad for very long. It's simply a decision that must be made.

    Step 5: In comparing the 2 employees who I have some problems with, I determine that my friend who is on the internet excessively and who is late a lot is the one who is bringing the least amount of productivity to the table. It makes me feel even worse that he's my friend, but he's got to go.

    Step 6: "Hey buddy, can I talk to you for a minute?"

    And so it goes. I value him as a human being, I value him as my friend and also as my employee, and it's difficult for me to let him go. But, if I get lost in the emotions of it and keep him on my payroll, then the whole company is going under and all 6 of us are out the door.

    As difficult as it is to let him go, logically speaking it's a no-brainer.

    Hope that helps some.

  9. #9
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermeticdancer View Post
    I want to understand how the individual logic process works, NT types. What are the processes you go to think things through, are you contious of them?
    Thinking logically is a bit of a default for me. I don't have to actively try to think/analyze/categorize/evaluate; it just happens.

    I think the essence of logical analysis is exploring causal relationships.

    After figuring out all the possible causal factors associated with a given consequence, you can isolate the possible causes one by one.

    Is a the only thing that can cause x? No, a, b, and c can cause x. How do a, b, and c relate with each other? Are they related causally, or are they caused by the same things?

    Does a necessarily imply b? Ie, just because a occurs, will b occur? Just because b occurs, does that mean that a occurred as well? It's just about exploring possible relationships and not being closed-minded to the possible relationships that you don't always see so easily.

    How do I become a more developed thinker? What is the value in this over feeling do you think? Does anyone not value emotion as much as thinking?
    Anybody can become a more "developed thinker." Ie, anybody can analyze/evaluate on an impersonal, detached level. You just have to realize what aspects of life and problems should have a personal bend and what aspects shouldn't. For me, I've pretty much developed a standard of "deserved" personal bend. In other words, "feeling" can come into play when the situation directly involves people and emotions or a situation in itself exists only to affect the well-being of a specific person/group of people. Emotional asides are not really important to me if the situation is not meant to be about emotions.

    What does it mean anyway to have thinking over feeling, and do you think it is better? Can you make value judgments, with reason?
    To be a thinker vs. a feeler largely means that you either use impersonal standards to evaluate the worth of something vs. using personal standards to evaluate the worth of something. Impersonal standards are not contingent upon how a person/group of people will react to and/or feel about a given situation. Personal standards are defined by how a person/group of people will feel about and/or react to a given situation.

    Impersonal standards are derived from the system, while personal standards are derived from the human perception of the system. Neither is more correct, but thinkers reason/analyze/evaluate via the former, while feelers reason/analyze/evaluate via the latter. You don't have to be a thinker to be reasonable, nor do you have to be a feeler to be emotional. It's all just about what's important to you when analyzing the your world and/or the world around you.

    For me, using Ti and Fe (rather than Fi and Te), I value the personal standards of the group (Fe) while disregarding individual standards that I derive solely from within (Fi). However, I also base my internal values on impersonal standards that can be consistent across any hypothetical given situation, regardless of context (Ti) rather than using impersonal standards to organize and determine the worth of things based on the context in my outer world (Te).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermeticdancer View Post
    I want to understand how the individual logic process works, NT types. What are the processes you go to think things through, are you contious of them?
    I'm not really very conscious of the processes. There is a fact, it has its causes and it can possibly lead to some outcome/consequences. Thinking of the causes of something can show whether you can actually change the fact, thinking of the outcome can show whether you want to change the fact.

    Something like that, but not as primitive as it sounds, quite more complicated.

    How do I become a more developed thinker?
    Maybe trying to take things apart mentally? Assign them to causes, predict the development/outcome, try to figure which factors influence and have to be taken into account.

    What is the value in this over feeling do you think? Does anyone not value emotion as much as thinking? What does it mean anyway to have thinking over feeling, and do you think it is better? Can you make value judgments, with reason?
    The value over feeling is that it's more straight-forward and less complex than feelings, to me at least. It's also a more generic tool, while let feelings guide you means that you have to constantly operating in a case-to-case basis.

    I'm not sure about the value judgements part. I can't think of any case that I had to consciously do a value judgement and whether I based it on feelings or reason.

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