[NT] Take me through your logic process, curious

[hermeticdancer]

I want to understand how the individual logic process works, NT types. What are the processes you go to think things through, are you contious of them? How do I become a more developed thinker? What is the value in this over feeling do you think? Does anyone not value emotion as much as thinking? What does it mean anyway to have thinking over feeling, and do you think it is better? Can you make value judgments, with reason?

 

[brainheart]

That is a lot of questions.

I don't seem to be conscious of it, I don't think (hee).

More developed thinker: think more.

Value over feeling, as a process: none. It's just how I roll.

I have plenty of emotion, it just seems to come from atypical things. For example, I was just watching a documentary on Frank Lloyd Wright and the astounding beauty he created from geometric shapes got me teary eyed.

Value judgments, with reason? Absolutely, that's how I do it.

 

[VagrantFarce]

there's a piece missing here

does this fit? no, but the answer is probably related...

does this fit? no, but I feel I'm on the right track...

what if I moved this piece over here...hmm, not a very elegant solution...

what if I switch these two p- no, that's just stupid...

does this fit? no...

does this fit? kind of!

does it fit with this? no...

wait!



IT FITSSSSSSSSS



...

there's a piece missing here...

 

[hermeticdancer]

That is a lot of questions.


Value over feeling, as a process: none. It's just how I roll.

I have plenty of emotion, it just seems to come from atypical things. For example, I was just watching a documentary on Frank Lloyd Wright and the astounding beauty he created from geometric shapes got me teary eyed.

Value judgments, with reason? Absolutely, that's how I do it.

So do you get emotional from being inspired. Like the beauty, in the film, you are talking about? I get some emotion from being inspired by moving musical pieces, or people who overcome great barriers, and don't ask for much. Also the moon, when it is full, and orange and low on the horizon, makes me in awe, it takes my breath away. It makes me so feel so humble and appreciate life. It makes me feel connected to life.

What do you mean, value over feeling?

what do the two mean by def to you?

 

[VagrantFarce]

bonus illustration:

[youtube=pxOdU1r0V2g]Making the pieces fit[/youtube]

 

[brainheart]

What do you mean, value over feeling?

Oops, I meant 'value thinking over feeling'- no, I do not. It's just that my thinking comes more naturally to me, that doesn't mean I value those with a feeling preference less. It is necessary for there to be a balance between the two in the world. That's part of the reason why I am married to someone with the feeling preference. We complement each other, and together make better informed decisions.

 

[hermeticdancer]

Maybe I should also ask how do you make sound value judgments with reason?
I know I haven't given any examples, maybe someone could think of one.

 

[INTPness]

Let's say that I run a small business with 5 employees plus myself. 3 of my employees are not really my friends (I didn't know them when I hired them), 2 of them were friends of mine at the time I hired them. Anyhow, the 6 of us have been hard at work as a team for 2 years. Overall, we make a great team and things run fairly smoothly.

In terms of individual performance, 1 of my friends is late to work a lot and tends to spend a little too much time on the internet during work hours. I've talked to him about it many times and he improves for a short period of time and then reverts to his old behavior.

1 of my "non-friends" calls out sick too much. It's a bit excessive, but she has many other good attributes that she brings to the table.

The other 3 employees I have no real complaints with. They are great employees.

The economy falls upon hard times, revenue decreases significantly, and we are now running a deficit each month. We are losing money. It's costing me money every month just to keep the doors open.

My logical process goes something like this. And it doesn't happen as "robotically" as it may sound when I type it out. It happens very quickly and fluidly in my mind. I just know right away what needs to be done.

Step 1: Logically, I know that this can't continue for very long. Bankruptcy is not an option I want to consider.

Step 2: Since I know this can't continue, I know I have to cut costs somehow - someway. It's an absolute necessity.

Step 3: Since I no longer *need* the assistance of 5 people, it doesn't make sense to pay 5 people. That's just money I'm losing and the business is losing. If I continue to pay 5 people at this rate, then all 6 of us will soon be out of work.

Step 4: It follows that somebody has to go. I don't want to do it, I feel bad to some extent, but I can't feel bad for very long. It's simply a decision that must be made.

Step 5: In comparing the 2 employees who I have some problems with, I determine that my friend who is on the internet excessively and who is late a lot is the one who is bringing the least amount of productivity to the table. It makes me feel even worse that he's my friend, but he's got to go.

Step 6: "Hey buddy, can I talk to you for a minute?"

And so it goes. I value him as a human being, I value him as my friend and also as my employee, and it's difficult for me to let him go. But, if I get lost in the emotions of it and keep him on my payroll, then the whole company is going under and all 6 of us are out the door.

As difficult as it is to let him go, logically speaking it's a no-brainer.

Hope that helps some.

 

[teslashock]

I want to understand how the individual logic process works, NT types. What are the processes you go to think things through, are you contious of them?

Thinking logically is a bit of a default for me. I don't have to actively try to think/analyze/categorize/evaluate; it just happens.

I think the essence of logical analysis is exploring causal relationships.

After figuring out all the possible causal factors associated with a given consequence, you can isolate the possible causes one by one.

Is a the only thing that can cause x? No, a, b, and c can cause x. How do a, b, and c relate with each other? Are they related causally, or are they caused by the same things?

Does a necessarily imply b? Ie, just because a occurs, will b occur? Just because b occurs, does that mean that a occurred as well? It's just about exploring possible relationships and not being closed-minded to the possible relationships that you don't always see so easily.

How do I become a more developed thinker? What is the value in this over feeling do you think? Does anyone not value emotion as much as thinking?

Anybody can become a more "developed thinker." Ie, anybody can analyze/evaluate on an impersonal, detached level. You just have to realize what aspects of life and problems should have a personal bend and what aspects shouldn't. For me, I've pretty much developed a standard of "deserved" personal bend. In other words, "feeling" can come into play when the situation directly involves people and emotions or a situation in itself exists only to affect the well-being of a specific person/group of people. Emotional asides are not really important to me if the situation is not meant to be about emotions.

What does it mean anyway to have thinking over feeling, and do you think it is better? Can you make value judgments, with reason?

To be a thinker vs. a feeler largely means that you either use impersonal standards to evaluate the worth of something vs. using personal standards to evaluate the worth of something. Impersonal standards are not contingent upon how a person/group of people will react to and/or feel about a given situation. Personal standards are defined by how a person/group of people will feel about and/or react to a given situation.

Impersonal standards are derived from the system, while personal standards are derived from the human perception of the system. Neither is more correct, but thinkers reason/analyze/evaluate via the former, while feelers reason/analyze/evaluate via the latter. You don't have to be a thinker to be reasonable, nor do you have to be a feeler to be emotional. It's all just about what's important to you when analyzing the your world and/or the world around you.

For me, using Ti and Fe (rather than Fi and Te), I value the personal standards of the group (Fe) while disregarding individual standards that I derive solely from within (Fi). However, I also base my internal values on impersonal standards that can be consistent across any hypothetical given situation, regardless of context (Ti) rather than using impersonal standards to organize and determine the worth of things based on the context in my outer world (Te).

 

[lastrailway]

I want to understand how the individual logic process works, NT types. What are the processes you go to think things through, are you contious of them?

I'm not really very conscious of the processes. There is a fact, it has its causes and it can possibly lead to some outcome/consequences. Thinking of the causes of something can show whether you can actually change the fact, thinking of the outcome can show whether you want to change the fact.

Something like that, but not as primitive as it sounds, quite more complicated.

How do I become a more developed thinker?

Maybe trying to take things apart mentally? Assign them to causes, predict the development/outcome, try to figure which factors influence and have to be taken into account.

What is the value in this over feeling do you think? Does anyone not value emotion as much as thinking? What does it mean anyway to have thinking over feeling, and do you think it is better? Can you make value judgments, with reason?

The value over feeling is that it's more straight-forward and less complex than feelings, to me at least. It's also a more generic tool, while let feelings guide you means that you have to constantly operating in a case-to-case basis.

I'm not sure about the value judgements part. I can't think of any case that I had to consciously do a value judgement and whether I based it on feelings or reason.

 

[INTP]

why? how? what if? and why? how? maybe possibly? etc etc

if i dont have enough info i start with alot of what if's(and end up having multiple possible truths) and start to eliminate least possible ones using how and why. if i still cant find the answer i start thinking those possible truths more deeply. if you give me example i might be able to explain it better.

one example came to my mind that my mom asked me few days ago. she told that she has about 10 meter long hallway that she needs to clean the floor from, mop reaches only half of the floor, so she needs to clean the other side first by walking to end of the hallway and then other side when coming back. she asked what side dries faster, the one that she cleans first or the second one. i didnt have to give this alot of thought since naturally the one she cleans later dries faster, because mop is more wet on the side that she starts from -> more water on the floor -> it takes longer to dry. pretty poor example because its so easy, but maybe you can see little bit of my thought process there

 

[Fluffywolf]

there's a piece missing here

does this fit? no, but the answer is probably related...

does this fit? no, but I feel I'm on the right track...

what if I moved this piece over here...hmm, not a very elegant solution...

what if I switch these two p- no, that's just stupid...

does this fit? no...

does this fit? kind of!

does it fit with this? no...

wait!



IT FITSSSSSSSSS



...

there's a piece missing here...

Pretty much like this. Finding the answer through finding relations and probabilities. But it never really ends.

 

[Katsuni]

My logic process is pretty transparent, to the point I don't consciously recognize it ocuring most of the time, making it very hard to prove the "I think therefore I am" statement... maybe I don't exist



Actually, I once talked with someone (was actually at a phonecall at work, was odd yet awesome XD ) and they described my thought process as 'shiny thinking'... the idea being yeu go "Oh yeah and then... OOH SHINY!" and yeur mind leaps to the next topic.

I have about 6 layers or so of thought going on at any one time, most independent of the others with no real connection, but there will occasionally be connections seen and link togeather completely random stuff... but any time yeu see one thing that looks vaguely interesting, yeu have to follow it... it's like trying to navigate Wikipedia... by following the first link of any topic yeu find remotely interesting. Except make every single word in the wiki page blue, not just alot of them.

Yeah... it's kinda crazy. My mind bounces aaaaaaall over the place. It makes perfect sense... to me.

I see nothing wrong with elephant > cannon > magic > spaceship, because I'm fitting alot of inbetweens in there that most people aren't seeing, but I can't speak as fast as I come up with this stuff... sooo yeu don't see elephant > mammal > chicken > chicken cannon > laser cannon > death star > star wars> scifi/fantasy mix > force > magic > sci fi again > 2001 a space oddessy > monolith > throwing the bone into the air and turning into a spaceship scene...

Yeah it makes perfect sense to me but I'm not going to mention half of that stuff XD

My logic is quite similar... it bounces around and makes connections in weird places.

All intelligence really is, is pattern recognition. The smarter yeu are, the more easily yeu recognize patterns. Including ones which don't exist. Which's why really smart people can seem crazy ^.^

 

[entropie]

I dont think its ever possible to think without feeling but what I encountered in the logic of more people-centred beings is that they can isolate situations and then overinterprete them.

For example: Me and my girl said we will do sports again when the cold winter is over and the spring comes. We contracted that in Januar.

Then she has a bad day at work, cause other people dragged her down and she empathizes much with the new situation and even starts to forget about the foundation of our plans. As in she goes on complaining about her situation and then drags into her complaints all things that come to mind, she is not doing at the moment but wants to: i.e. she wants to do sports.

With calm reason then you can calm her down by saying that we are already planning to do sports and that the time has just come with spring dawning.

That's just one example out of 100. It's like a loop sometimes, she gets caught in a feeling and then she spirals upward.

It's a thing that happens to me to, therefore I understand, I kill it with excessive alcohol consumption but yeah... could need a strong thinker to rely on myself sometimes

 

[Venom]

for me its a basis of constantly having to remind myself: "wait. does that ACTUALLY follow with ABSOLUTE necessity?"

If I dont keep reminding myself of that, I tend to apply what I think seems most appropriate. Like with math, I will convince myself that, "ya moving this there, that looks like it could work well enough..." and then of course it doesnt follow ABSOLUTE necessity logic of math! That's why I need to practice a type of problem over and over to do well in math classes, because then its just a procedure that I'm following, rather than actual mathematical thinking .

If im trying to think through logic in an essay or a test question I'm a lot better at it. For some reason it trips me up a lot less than straight math. I'm much more likely to write an answer that just unpacks itself from first principles. That's actually my favorite feeling after an essay/test: knowing that its right because the answers practically wrote themselves based on first principles I know the prof agrees with...

 

[yvonne]

pretty much how VagrantFarce described it. i gather information, search for patterns and put stuff together like pieces of a puzzle and try to do it in a way that makes most sense to me.

 

[onemoretime]

There's no real process. At one moment, things are at rest. Then all of a sudden, a bit of information flies in, and then BOOM - trails of conclusions manifest themselves.

 

[hermeticdancer]

My logic process is pretty transparent, to the point I don't consciously recognize it ocuring most of the time, making it very hard to prove the "I think therefore I am" statement... maybe I don't exist



Actually, I once talked with someone (was actually at a phonecall at work, was odd yet awesome XD ) and they described my thought process as 'shiny thinking'... the idea being yeu go "Oh yeah and then... OOH SHINY!" and yeur mind leaps to the next topic.

I have about 6 layers or so of thought going on at any one time, most independent of the others with no real connection, but there will occasionally be connections seen and link togeather completely random stuff... but any time yeu see one thing that looks vaguely interesting, yeu have to follow it... it's like trying to navigate Wikipedia... by following the first link of any topic yeu find remotely interesting. Except make every single word in the wiki page blue, not just alot of them.

Yeah... it's kinda crazy. My mind bounces aaaaaaall over the place. It makes perfect sense... to me.

I see nothing wrong with elephant > cannon > magic > spaceship, because I'm fitting alot of inbetweens in there that most people aren't seeing, but I can't speak as fast as I come up with this stuff... sooo yeu don't see elephant > mammal > chicken > chicken cannon > laser cannon > death star > star wars> scifi/fantasy mix > force > magic > sci fi again > 2001 a space oddessy > monolith > throwing the bone into the air and turning into a spaceship scene...

Yeah it makes perfect sense to me but I'm not going to mention half of that stuff XD

My logic is quite similar... it bounces around and makes connections in weird places.

All intelligence really is, is pattern recognition. The smarter yeu are, the more easily yeu recognize patterns. Including ones which don't exist. Which's why really smart people can seem crazy ^.^

Sounds like a "bing" search engine commercial.

 

[visaisahero]

Logic to me is a way of life. It involves making perceptive insights and effective decisions. Logic is a usefully reliable way to navigate the chaos of both our inner and outer worlds in a thorough and efficient manner. It's a consistent and reliable system that rarely fails me- and whenever it seems like it might, hindsight often proves that it was simply applied ineffectively or incorrectly.

Logic plays a large role in maximizing personal utility- whenever faced with any sort of decision, my instinct is to think "what's the logical thing to do here?" I think about short-term and long-term costs and benefits, I think about what I know, what I know I don't, and what I might not expect. I consider alternatives, I think forward and backward a couple of steps- I have a subconscious arsenal of queries and concerns which must be addressed in order to proceed with assurance and understanding.

Logic is the foundation which I build almost everything else upon, and it allows me to reach higher and further than I would otherwise be able to.

 

[forzen]

There seems to be no universal constant when it comes to logic. Everyone can twist any arguement to support any logical claim.

So to me, thinking means to see the same idea at a different perspective and compiling the constant to form a foundation for said idea. This way, I know the accuracy of the idea is as close to perfect and any bias (except my bias) towards the idea will hopefully get filtered in the process. So in my opinion, understanding the concept or foundation of an idea is more important than memorizing facts. So I guess i'm not a logical thinker....doh.