[INTJ] Why do a lot of people seem to have lots of negative views about INTJs?

[Xander]

That isn't really consistent with the order of functions. Of all the NTs they have the stronger placement of inner feeling and values:


INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe
ENTJ = Te Ni Se Fi
ENTP = Ne Ti Fe Si
INTJ = Ni Te Fi Se

But as you know being an F doesn't mean your feelings are more or less intense. Of all the people I know, the Fs freeze the best. The Ts lack the fine manipulation and just shut off Fs continue to give emotion but it's all cold.

 

[white]

I noticed that the mere mention of the word INTJ makes other people say, "Oh!"... <silence> and then walk away.

What's with that?

They're not the easiest of people to work with. Frequently high intelligence, strong willed, however, there is a certain inability and / or a disinclination to make themselves understood.

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong, still working out the cognitive functions) this is primarily due to a confluence between a strong sense of themselves being right (Ni) based on their own insights, coupled with selective filtering of information to support their position (Te), often in ways which others find hard to follow given the abstraction.

However, a failure to take in other/new information and views which could be valid (Se) to the case at hand, and the weak placement of Fi, mean they may also miss out on the nuances in others' feelings, which could affect the case at hand.

Hence the appearance of being stubborn / abrupt / dismissorial of views that are different. When the reality is simply, they see it as their way is right and are not sure why others do not see it.

In a group situation, this can be intimidating and difficult. Simply, the way a message is delivered influences how well it is received, vs. the correctness of the view itself. And an unwillingness to consider possibilities works against the very nature of a group, the chief advantage of which is to generate more possibilities & pick out more flaws to decide on a solution, vs one person working alone.

and if I'm wayyyy off, please ignore this post. lol.

 

[ps646566]

Just to reverse this for a moment. It's been my experience with INTJs that they are neither blunt nor to the point. They only release what they feel comfortable in releasing, believing it to be a final solution and perfect, which seems to be why there is such a fuss made if you simply answer "no that's wrong". Also they are quite the opposite of being blunt, very rarely getting to any kind of serious point they are more akin to fencers, darting about and stabbing wildly.

In the deeper conversations I've had with my INTJ friend I've had to spend quite a lot of time and effort breaking down the glib repeated answers to try and get at what is beneath only to find that what lies beneath the "final solution" hasn't been investigated properly and is, too my mind, ill formed.

I admit that I am hardly unimpeachable in the regard of good foundation work but this is usually worse with hastily constructed reinforcement slapped in one what seem to be the places where criticism is levelled.

Oh and if you want blunt in our group you go and see the ENFJ.

No, no, no, no, no. That's way off beam. What I said in the first place is right . 100% right. I don't have to prove it, it just is, trust me .....

 

[Hypomanic]

Hmm as J's they can seem closed minded, or decisively ingenious. I guess it has to be in context. I've seen sexist INTJ's and disliked them for not ever shutting up. I've also seen kick ass INTJ's whom I respect. Once again, context. I have a favorable view of INTJ's in general. They're the other primarily iNtuitive type.. what's not to love?

 

[Xander]

No, no, no, no, no. That's way off beam. What I said in the first place is right . 100% right. I don't have to prove it, it just is, trust me .....

You know, I was just expecting "No.".
You must be mellowing or summint.

 

[chippinchunk]

They seem a bit (uh...yeah...). It's hard to just have a normal, pleasent conversation with them, without it turning into a I'm-right-and-your-wrong thing. I'm friends with one and it's difficult. My friends hate him, and I can understand that, but I'm not going to stop haning out with him because of it. He's always over analyzing things and he can't just let things be. It's actually really depressing. It may be becuase of his type, but everything he says keeps me thinking that there is somthing behind his desire to show off his intellagence. Am I wrong, or does he just really want to be a smart alleck-y bastard?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Hmm as J's they can seem closed minded, or decisively ingenious. I guess it has to be in context. I've seen sexist INTJ's and disliked them for not ever shutting up. I've also seen kick ass INTJ's whom I respect. Once again, context. I have a favorable view of INTJ's in general. They're the other primarily iNtuitive type.. what's not to love?

If you look at the functions over the letters it sheds a different light. Ni is about viewing issues from every perspective. I think people assume the INTJ thinks they are "right" when they are merely testing one position for its full potential. The problem is other people fold or make quick assumptions that this is some sort of conclusion. Also an INTJ is less likely to propose a viewpoint without some background analysis and insight. When encountering someone who has not taken the time to do this, that person may respond with "the INTJ thinks they are right" only because they were unable to refute the position. It is entirely possible the INTJ could and would refute their own position. Just a thought to consider.

 

[Oberon]

You should see what's going on over at the INTJ forum. It's a regular Donner party over there.

"Donner, party of eighteen... Donner, party of eight... er, seventeen. Somebody get these people a table!"

 

[runvardh]

Y'all seem to know some INTJs who lack a basic handle on critical argumentation.

Dude, you got burried; mind expanding for the less enligtened? I have an INTJ in my Christian circle of friends and I find him decently approachable and extremely* helpful in keeping my head in a direction.

Edit: *added for better scale of meaning

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Si is the function that create a single, detailed, comprehensive, measured world view. Ni is multifaceted. There are strengths and weaknesses to both approaches. These produce different debate styles, although I can see how a single instance could produce a similar appearance of style.

 

[Hypomanic]

Si is the function that create a single, detailed, comprehensive, measured world view. Ni is multifaceted. There are strengths and weaknesses to both approaches. These produce different debate styles, although I can see how a single instance could produce a similar appearance of style.

Could you show me your sources? That's interesting.

 

[Veneti]

If you look at the functions over the letters it sheds a different light. Ni is about viewing issues from every perspective. I think people assume the INTJ thinks they are "right" when they are merely testing one position for its full potential. The problem is other people fold or make quick assumptions that this is some sort of conclusion. Also an INTJ is less likely to propose a viewpoint without some background analysis and insight. When encountering someone who has not taken the time to do this, that person may respond with "the INTJ thinks they are right" only because they were unable to refute the position. It is entirely possible the INTJ could and would refute their own position. Just a thought to consider.

Absolutely right.

People need to understand that’s there's a whole range of intelligence(s) between different INTJs. Bright ones and thick(ish) ones.

Sometimes we argue a point just to see if the other person is smart enough to actually pull the argument towards the actual right answer. Sometimes we know there's a huge hole in the argument we put forward and we smile when the other person is actually smart enough to jump through it (being so called "wrong" sometimes is great...).

Believe it or not, sometimes we'll just pick arguments to give our brains a work out.. Think of it like walking the dog.

In terms of arguing or even putting forward a theory.. People should realise that these are put forward to extract further information and or glean some new angles on the topic... if we are doing that, then there's a whole heap of prior knowledge behind it.

 

[Veneti]

INTJs think like dams. They build up all this knowledge behind a wall of what they believe is logic and objective insight, but they can't allow any doubt to creep in, otherwise little cracks would form and it could all come crashing through. They tend to be annoying because they only collect or believe information that supports the way they see the world.

Interestingly, I think of it like building frameworks of connected knowledge... and yes, sometimes some INTJs will not allow any doubt to creep in... but those that do.. just let the dam burst and build a better one.

As an example, as a kid I used to use conflict as a motivating force.. but as I grew up the whole thing had to change so I moved to a more "team" approach (as its sustainable in the longer run and can leverage more). And the process of change was a huge reconstruction and exploration of my subconcious actions and ways of thinking/acting etc etc.

 

[Veneti]

Could you show me your sources? That's interesting.

To me, Si is the direct observation of the "object", Ni is more of an observation by reflection on the "object".

 

[Gabe]

Part frustration with the way they cling to their philosophies, part jealousy because they're so fucking focused and capable.

Really. Because a theorist in the wrong situation can seem very incompetent. (I'd just like to put that out there to blow this whole 'larger than life' perception away)

 

[Gabe]

INTJs think like dams. They build up all this knowledge behind a wall of what they believe is logic and objective insight, but they can't allow any doubt to creep in, otherwise little cracks would form and it could all come crashing through. They tend to be annoying because they only collect or believe information that supports the way they see the world.

For example, here is a simplified INTJ conversation....

INTJ: The number of car accidents in this state has gone up this year and I blame drunk driving.
INFJ: Ok, but there isn't any evidence to show that there are more drunk driving related accidents in the state so there could be other causes.
INTJ: Drunk driving is responsible for most accidents in this country.
INFJ: Ok, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the upward trend in this case is due to more drunk driving.
INTJ: Are you saying that there wouldn't be fewer accidents if there were fewer drunk drivers?
INFJ: That is beside the point, you are suggesting that there are more accidents in this state because of drunk driving, despite not having any evidence that there are more drunk driving related accidents.
INTJ: Last year, 76% of accidents were caused by drunk drivers in this state. I would say that is evidence this state has a drunk driving problem.
INFJ: Yes, the state has a problem, but that doesn't mean that the recent rise in accidents were due to drunk drivers.

Do you see the pattern? The INFJ keeps suggesting something is wrong with the INTJ's argument. But the INTJ, rather than address the flaw in his thinking, continues to build an argument for why he believes drunk driving is responsible for the rise in accidents. This is typically the pattern of most conversations I have had with INTJs.

Well I haven't met any who were like that.

 

[Gabe]

But as you know being an F doesn't mean your feelings are more or less intense. Of all the people I know, the Fs freeze the best. The Ts lack the fine manipulation and just shut off Fs continue to give emotion but it's all cold.

Now I CAN actually admit to that one.

 

[Kiddo]

Well I haven't met any who were like that.

INTJ Central

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

INTJ's tends to be blunt and to the point -- there is nothing that many people like less than being confronted with the uncomfortable or inconvenient truth.

That seems somewhat idealistic to me. One INTJ loves being all that - unconfortable, inconvenient and telling the truth - but he does it at the cost of missing the point. It almost seems like a purpose in itself for him. Well, that's him only half the time.

 

[Maverick]

Why do people have negative views about INTJ's? Simply because people use two fundamental dimensions when evaluating others: comptence and warmth. Any person who is perceived as high in one will be automatically perceived as less high in the other as a form of compensation. We tend to like warm people, however we tend to envy competent people. We want competence for ourselves and warmth in others.

ESFP's are perceived as the ultimate warm types. They are pleasant to be around and are do not destabilize you in your world views. INTJ's, on the other hand, are the ultimate competent types. They tend to put others ill at ease and challenge their thinking.

I think many people envy INTJ's. They like their competence and would want it for them. They also see INTJ's as competitive and threatening compared to, say, ESFP's.

Of course, as an ENTJ, I tend to really enjoy the company of INTJ's and find myself at ease with them. For example, I find myself feeling very much in peace and in harmony when surfing on INTJcentral. I resonate alot with the people there. My perspective is based on my observations of people's reactions to INTJ's and not on my reactions.