[INTJ] Why do a lot of people seem to have lots of negative views about INTJs?

[Mycroft]

Yeah it can do, I've often thought that too. Depending though on the relationship between A and B, it might say just as much about both of them. People at close quarters like spouses, siblings, parents and children, close house mates etc, I think are in a better position to make reliable judgements about each other where the only thing they tell you about person A is that they're shrewdly observant

True!

(Although hypothetical Person C might say that Person A is not shrewd, but rather probing and cynical. Person C is obviously just a milquetoast.*)





*This parenthetical is my idea of a joke, believe it or not.

 

[substitute]

*This parenthetical is my idea of a joke, believe it or not.

Heheh, I'm well acquainted with the INTJ sense of humour... many a time I've strolled town Tumbleweed Street

 

[Apollonian]

After reading many of the posts here, I am curious about people's impressions of "INTJ"s. First of all, I think that Athenian hit on something here:

Well, because they can be "amusingly blunt," in my opinion. I sort of want to laugh and express shock at the same time, because I know what they meant, but they really butchered it and laid it out there rather directly, when I would have tried to be more subtle, or not even mentioned it. Some times it can also be really saddening, to watch them repeated get misunderstood as they try to make their point, making critical comments to hide how hurt and confused they probably are (on some level) by the other person's reactions.

Second, I think that a lot of the experiences that people have shared here in terms of discussions or interactions that they have had with "INTJ"s do not epitomize the type at all. There is certainly a tendency for an INTJ to be more blunt, but not all INTJs have the same social breeding. Thus, personal history and breeding plays a large role in how "agreeable" an INTJ is. It is also true that INTJs tend "not to suffer fools gladly" but this does not mean that they are cavelier or arrogant about it.

Lastly, and this is the biggest peave I have, is that I have determined that logical argument has much more to do with proper education and practice than it ever does with type. There are many INTJs who have no clue about what logic really is and present their views using Te as if they are always right, presuming that they are naturally using "logic" to justify themselves. There are other INTJs who have studied formal logic and know how to correctly apply the socratic method and (most importantly!) know how to admit when they have made a mistake.

The bottom line is that immature INTJs, like immature individuals of all types, give INTJs a bad reputation. Mature INTJs tend not to get labelled as INTJs so much because people cannot seem to reconcile their preconception of the cold, intellectual juggernauts against a polite and agreeable person who has taken time to round out their public persona.

Why do a lot of people have negative views of "INTJ"s as a "group"? Like most negative views, they appear to be founded in unsubstantiated stereotyping.

 

[Wolf]

This thread is full of the same bogus stereotyping that I always see. Most of you have never met even one of us, let alone actually known one of us.

 

[wildcat]

One thing I've noticed that my daughter does is that she treats people that are not her family/friends/teachers sort of like flies she can't be bothered to swat.

She is a for-real salt of the earth person in that she's honest, responsible, benevolent, etc, but she does not suffer fools gladly so not everyone gets to see how great she is.

In middle school, she had a reputation for not responding at all when people she didn't like (and I don't mean that she necessarily disliked them, either) spoke to her. She might look at them for a second to identify them, but that's all.

People don't always know how to take that kind of thing. I think it's pretty hilarious, though.

Give them the eye, eh?

I like that.

 

[ps646566]

The bottom line is that immature INTJs, like immature individuals of all types, give INTJs a bad reputation. Mature INTJs tend not to get labelled as INTJs so much because people cannot seem to reconcile their preconception of the cold, intellectual juggernauts against a polite and agreeable person who has taken time to round out their public persona.

Spot on. You can see this phenomenon on this forum and on similar ones. Some probably younger people who have tested as INTJ take up a stance along the lines of, "Yes, I'm a cold, arrogant, intolerant, indiscreet little s**t. But I'm also very bright and capable, and frankly if I p**s people off, then I'm kind of proud of that."

Some of this of course is internet bravado, but there's no doubt some substance to it. A undoubted feature of the INTJ type is constantly learning from experience and as a result looking for a better way to run your life. They therefore change over time probably as much as any type, if not more. But lurking underneath there is always the trait that says, "If experience and logic tells me that I'm right, and you can't prove or convince me that I'm wrong then that's the end of the matter. Because I'm not going to enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed man."

 

[Wolf]

I also suspect that most people that claim INTJ are actually ISTJ in denial.

 

[ps646566]

I also suspect that most people that claim INTJ are actually ISTJ in denial.

Or borderline and not denying it, like me. I'm happy with the S-ish tendency -- helps to keep my feet on the ground and to remember on which side my bread is buttered.

 

[Mycroft]

I also suspect that most people that claim INTJ are actually ISTJ in denial.

I've given thought to that. There are many areas of the ISTJ descriptions I relate with, and it wouldn't shatter my world to discover I was one. I'm reasonably sure I'm not, although if you have reason to believe I am, I'd certainly take it into consideration. I'm more interested in being accurate about my type than in being any particular type.

 

[Apollonian]

If I am borderline between any type, it is certainly not ISTJ. I am so horribly abstract in my understanding of the world that it almost isn't even funny. When I struggle to explain things to people and end up creating diagrams to represent psychological and sociological principles, there is no doubt left that I swing far to the side of Ni over Si. If I hadn't learned to listen to other people, I'd routinely drive the ISTJ's to fury.

There is one point about my experience with ISTJ+INTJ interaction which is relevant to this thread, though. It is frustrating when I am explaining something and use a certain word to connote something subtle and the ISTJ (with an Si way of looking at the world) has a certain idea of what a certain word should mean, thus misunderstanding me. The really puzling thing is when the discussion comes to a halt so that we can side track and debate why "you shouldn't have used that word". This is where I can become disagreable because I happen to believe that there is a reason that there are multiple definitions of many words in a dictionary. If people are unwilling to be flexible in attempts to understand what I mean (which is usually more subtle than colloquial conversation), then I generally let them be offended or confused. If I circumlocute and they refuse to recognize my meaning and get stuck on the meaning that they 'heard' from the word I used ("but that's not what you said!" *sigh* "I don't care what I said; listen to what I meant!") then I throw my hands up in exasperation (not to mention exacerbation). In other words, for a lot of people (including INTJs for that matter) conversations get stuck by Semantics.

I can only wonder what this looks like from the other side, but I very much imagine that this sort of dynamic is what creates some of the stand-offish reputation that INTJs can achieve (because we refuse to fit our ideas into other people's box-like view of the world).

 

[LordPwnage]

My mom is an INTJ, and she is hardly a robot super-villain. She can be very compassionate and emotional at times (at least around her close friends and family), but she certainly displays stubbornness, impatience, and is willing to butt heads with me whenever she feels like it.

 

[red13]

This thread is full of the same bogus stereotyping that I always see. Most of you have never met even one of us, let alone actually known one of us.

It does concern me how many INTJs that contributors know. Considering that we are only 3% of the population, and not particularly gregarious, it seems surprising that so many people know so many INTJs. It would be interesting for the contributors to this forum to calculate the percentage of INTJs that they know, I suspect it will be much greater than 3%, why? For some reason many people seem to test as or claim to be INTJ, but are they really INTJ? I certainly don't know any other INTJ, I have have met one who I tested on a course, but that was quite a shock.

 

[red13]

I also suspect that most people that claim INTJ are actually ISTJ in denial.

As far as I'm concerned ISTJ is diametrically opposed to an INTJ, I suspect it's the most difficult, but possibly rewarding, working relationship. INTJs come up with Ideas; ISTJs shoot them down by playing devils advocate. This forces the INTJ to come up with even better ideas. an INTJ without an ISTJ just goes with their first, probably daft, idea. An ISTJ without an INTJ just doesn't have any good ideas.

I just can't imagine what it's like to be an ISTJ.

p.s. I'm married to an ISTJ!

 

[FallsPioneer]

As far as I'm concerned ISTJ is diametrically opposed to an INTJ, I suspect it's the most difficult, but possibly rewarding, working relationship. INTJs come up with Ideas; ISTJs shoot them down by playing devils advocate. This forces the INTJ to come up with even better ideas. an INTJ without an ISTJ just goes with their first, probably daft, idea. An ISTJ without an INTJ just doesn't have any good ideas.

I just can't imagine what it's like to be an ISTJ.

p.s. I'm married to an ISTJ!

Heh heh, I like the last part the best.

 

[Kristiana]

Why do people have such negative ideas about INTJs?

Simple. They haven't yet met me!







Hmmm seriously, probably because we INTJs are quite countercultural, especially the females.

 

[Camelopardalis]

We're just so far off from the norm that we don't seem to be understood by anyone but one of our own (I'm grateful for the INTJ forum). There's a stereotype that somehow implies INTJ females are not 'womanly' and there's somehow something wrong with speaking, thinking and acting like a 'man', which, might I mention is another stereotype (just like it's wrong generally for boys to be interested in dolls instead of war games). There's been much fuss about how INTJ's are cold. I would like to point out that we're not (or at least, I'm not). I don't like to communicate my emotions, and hardly anybody but myself know what I'm thinking most of the time. Whenever I was hugged, I tend to flinch and nicely explain why I'm not comfortable with being hugged. That didn't really distant me from my emotionally expressive friends and they understood. Not many people know us personally. I myself have a wide circle of close friends, but among them, I can only vouch for 2 of them to really know me (and in any case, I only truly like these two). Even then, I have more than 50% of myself kept from my closest of confidants. They're the people I 'click' with and I find that I can admire, whether it be their intellect, character or achievements who share a similar depth of thought with me (and those who realize that there is more to the world than fashion, dating and 'having fun').

Even though I'm good at it, honestly, I hate acting. With most of my friends, whenever I start on a subject that really interests me (science, politics, philosophy etc), they find the quickest way out of it and change the subject to gossip, flirting and complaining about how stupid people are (they really have no rights to do that) I have to act silly and immature around them or I'd be considered 'no fun at all'.

Some of us do not think that most people are competent because they don't make 'sense' or that they are not decisive/focused enough on a task. (I'm generalizing, but only from my observation) We admire the purest of logic and the courage to admit that one's wrong. That is a discipline most INTJ's follow and some of them expect the same of others. That may come off as arrogance to the general populous, and I really don't blame them.

Might I mention that most INTJ's prefer to handle things and see the world through a detached point of view? That might anger most F's and some other T's.

 

[Tigerlily]

It's because we cut out the bullshit.

This is one reason I like INTJ's. I don't have time for idle chatter most of the time so I like people to just spit it out and have it make sense as well. I would like all my Dr's to be INTJ's. F's annoy me and never seem to just get to the point and give me a suitable solution.

 

[Xander]

Reading through some of the posts on here I have to conclude that the definitions of the various types are very ill defined and possibly the userbase is using multiple different sources for their understandings (for example the reference of an INTJ to another type as "always shooting down ideas" is hilarious to me as an INTP with an INTJ mate).

A couple of things though that INTJs seem to be proving that they have in spades.

Independence of thinking.
I guess all that dismissive behaviour has to have a final outcome but it does seem that through sorting the wheat from the chaff like combine harvesters of thought many INTJs have found what I'd consider an excellent and individual outcome.

You know I've got this far and just the expectance of dismissal has removed all motivation for writing anything further. I guess that says something...

 

[Kristiana]

It does concern me how many INTJs that contributors know. Considering that we are only 3% of the population, and not particularly gregarious, it seems surprising that so many people know so many INTJs. It would be interesting for the contributors to this forum to calculate the percentage of INTJs that they know, I suspect it will be much greater than 3%, why? For some reason many people seem to test as or claim to be INTJ, but are they really INTJ? I certainly don't know any other INTJ, I have have met one who I tested on a course, but that was quite a shock.

I suspect that a ton of people who test as INTJ are really some other type. I'm on another INTJ forum, and I can guarantee that at least a dozen of the ones who post frequently are definitely not INTJs (and they don't realize this). One example is a guy from there I met in person who frequently uses concrete facts and experiential data, and admits to such - he clearly isn't N, and he doesn't 'feel' N to me, even though he claims to be.

Another factor is masculinity being associated with T. I suspect a lot of INFJ males may misidentify themselves as INTJ, simply because they are socialized to try and act more 'T', even though that is not their most natural preference.
(I did the reverse of this, as I thought I was INFJ for years.)

I know quite a few real INTJs, but like I said, I'm on an INTJ forum and have been for awhile

 

[Camelopardalis]

I suspect that a ton of people who test as INTJ are really some other type. I'm on another INTJ forum, and I can guarantee that at least a dozen of the ones who post frequently are definitely not INTJs (and they don't realize this). One example is a guy from there I met in person who frequently uses concrete facts and experiential data, and admits to such - he clearly isn't N, and he doesn't 'feel' N to me, even though he claims to be.

Another factor is masculinity being associated with T. I suspect a lot of INFJ males may misidentify themselves as INTJ, simply because they are socialized to try and act more 'T', even though that is not their most natural preference.
(I did the reverse of this, as I thought I was INFJ for years.)

I know quite a few real INTJs, but like I said, I'm on an INTJ forum and have been for awhile

On INTJ forum, there are hidden 'F's (not implying anything bad about being an F) and a few hidden 'S's, judging by the way they post. However, I can't pretend to know them, so I'll reserve judgment. I've seen some very outwardly 'F' "INTJ's", and they act like that quite a lot, so they may be mistaken in their typing. I understand, however, that they may mistake acting T and truly being T. When I was ESFP during my early childhood, I constantly try to act more 'T'.