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  1. #51
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Honestly, I agree with the INTJ so far. Perhaps the evidence wasn't sufficient, but there's no reason to believe that it's wrong, even if the statistics aren't relevant to the point. All you did was complain that using them that way was wrong, and claim their evidence wasn't sufficient, and thus they were automatically wrong. You didn't say anything that explained why you were right about it being due to other causes. If you had done that, it might have worked out better. You didn't say what would have shown that it was due to other causes, you only pointed out that those didn't show that, and claimed that the idea was automatically wrong based on that.

    I know that I personally am not willing to believe that something I think is wrong just because someone else says it is. They have to explain, in a way that I can understand, why it's wrong and something else is right, otherwise I won't believe it. I might pretend to accept it if I feel that the other person can't stand for me to disagree, but I'll never actually accept it.

    In case you're curious, I think that drunk driving is bad in any case, because it's very dangerous, preventable, and can lead to many deaths.
    In that entire conversation, I never had the INFJ character even hint that he felt the INTJ was "automatically wrong". The INFJ character was merely pointing out a fallacy in the INTJs logic.

    INTJ: I believe A is true because of B.
    INFJ: There is no evidence that B has influenced A in this case.

    That isn't saying the he thinks the INTJ is wrong. The INFJ understand very well that A could be true because of B. He is only asserting that it isn't an appropriate conclusion to make with the available evidence. The INTJ never provides any evidence to support his conclusion, only insinuations of why B could influence A.

    But your response sounds exactly like what meta was talking about. I'm starting to seriously wonder if you might be an INTJ.

  2. #52
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    In that entire conversation, I never had the INFJ character even hint that he felt the INTJ was "automatically wrong". The INFJ character was merely pointing out a fallacy in the INTJs logic.

    INTJ: I believe A is true because of B.
    INFJ: There is no evidence that B has influenced A in this case.

    That isn't saying the he thinks the INTJ is wrong. The INFJ understand very well that A could be true because of B. He is only asserting that it isn't an appropriate conclusion to make with the available evidence. The INTJ never provides any evidence to support his conclusion, only insinuations of why B could influence A.
    But you don't explain why it's not an appropriate conclusion, you just assert that it isn't, and expect them to accept that as a fact. That's the problem. Also, I think maybe you were missing the point. Their point may incorporate evidence, but what they're really interested in is saying that drunk driving is bad. They're just trying to express it through facts rather than opinions, and since you're disagreeing, they're assuming you must be saying that there's nothing wrong with drunk driving.
    But your response sounds exactly like what meta was talking about. I'm starting to seriously wonder if you might be an INTJ.
    Now, that's just mean... accusing someone of being an INTJ. You really have it in for me, don't you?

  3. #53
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    In that entire conversation, I never had the INFJ character even hint that he felt the INTJ was "automatically wrong". The INFJ character was merely pointing out a fallacy in the INTJs logic.

    INTJ: I believe A is true because of B.
    INFJ: There is no evidence that B has influenced A in this case.

    That isn't saying the he thinks the INTJ is wrong. The INFJ understand very well that A could be true because of B. He is only asserting that it isn't an appropriate conclusion to make with the available evidence. The INTJ never provides any evidence to support his conclusion, only insinuations of why B could influence A.

    But your response sounds exactly like what meta was talking about. I'm starting to seriously wonder if you might be an INTJ.
    This is actually something that we do that I only recently noticed. He very likely knew that the flaw you were acknowledging existed (since you pointed it out), but he considered it negligible to the ultimate argument. So...he was arguing with intuition rather than facts, whereas you were arguing against his method, rather than the result. He probably was right. This is another example of INTP vs. INTJ logic (as far as I know). We only use logic to reach an end. Once we believed we have reached a reasonable conclusion (which this appears to be), then we discontinue pursuit of evidence...where as an INTP would tear the whole thing apart to find out exactly what caused percentages of accidents (if they cared).

    Was his logic flawed? Yes. But the fact is...we are users. We aren't masterminds because we make plans (at least that isn't the only reason). We are masterminds because we get other people to implement them for us. This is an example of an INTJ using you to test his point of view (albeit subconciously). At this point, it was your job to prove him wrong, or prove yourself right. From his point of view, the arguments purpose was to test his idea. You did neither by trying to prove his method wrong, rather than his result...so he eliminated your input.

    This is one of our faults, most likely. I can understand your confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200
    Now, that's just mean... accusing someone of being an INTJ. You really have it in for me, don't you?
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #54
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    But you don't explain why it's not an appropriate conclusion, you just assert that it isn't, and expect them to accept that as a fact. That's the problem. Also, I think maybe you were missing the point. Their point may incorporate evidence, but what they're really interested in is saying that drunk driving is bad. They're just trying to express it through facts rather than opinions, and since you're disagreeing, they're assuming you must be saying that there's nothing wrong with drunk driving.
    Ok, I see your point. I simplified the conversation but beforehand I should have asserted that there really was no evidence to support the INTJs claim. Otherwise it just appears that the INFJ is asserting that there is no evidence, even though they have no evidence to support that assertion.

    Now, that's just mean... accusing someone of being an INTJ. You really have it in for me, don't you?
    I can never tell if you are kidding or not.

    Assuming you are.

    Assuming you aren't.

    INTJs are a much more complex type than I could have imagined strictly on observation. I would not be ashamed to be one.

  5. #55
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    because they say such blunt and judgemental things that I'm convinced that they're probably thinking mean things about me most of the time?

    they're horribly stubborn about things!

    a bit uptight

    amazingly serious!!! (and the ones I know don't get my jokes )
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #56
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    INTPs criticize us for not being logical enough. ENFJs think say we're not warm enough. ESTPs think we need to lighten up and quit taking everything so seriously.

    Do you see an emerging pattern here? The pattern behind this pattern is the heart of the INTJ's worldview. (And the pattern behind that pattern, well, there's a real doozy!)

  7. #57
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Good points. You enjoy being challenged too? I like the fact that with INTJ's things rarely become personal. What a pleasure to argue with such people!
    So true Cheers for the INTJ

  8. #58
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    INTPs criticize us for not being logical enough. ENFJs think say we're not warm enough. ESTPs think we need to lighten up and quit taking everything so seriously.

    Do you see an emerging pattern here? The pattern behind this pattern is the heart of the INTJ's worldview. (And the pattern behind that pattern, well, there's a real doozy!)
    I say you're fine as you are, but if you were asking advice about how you could be more well liked, I'd just say 'try smiling more and being a bit gentler with people, less abrupt, and remember people can't read your mind and you can't read theirs either'.

    I'd say that purely for your benefit (a hypothetical 'you' that's a hypothetical INTJ, not you personally), but it makes no odds to me whether you take that advice or not - I don't need you to for me to like you and enjoy your company. Just saying what other people tend to 'need' sometimes.

    For myself, I get along just fine with my INTJ and, like Maverick and Santtu, enjoy the calm, rational, non-personal discussions that are possible with him and my ISTJ. I don't find his demeanour at all intimidating (though I see how other types might), and many of the things others complain about regarding him are things I actually quite like.

    I wouldn't ever advise someone to change themselves in an endless and futile quest to 'please them all'. As long as you're pleasing some, and especially the ones who are important to you, you're fine as you are. Those you don't please aren't forced by any law to like you or befriend you, nor you them. They can go do the other thing, and find people they can like without having to try to change them.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  9. #59
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I say you're fine as you are, but if you were asking advice about how you could be more well liked, I'd just say 'try smiling more and being a bit gentler with people, less abrupt, and remember people can't read your mind and you can't read theirs either'.

    I'd say that purely for your benefit (a hypothetical 'you' that's a hypothetical INTJ, not you personally), but it makes no odds to me whether you take that advice or not - I don't need you to for me to like you and enjoy your company. Just saying what other people tend to 'need' sometimes.

    For myself, I get along just fine with my INTJ and, like Maverick and Santtu, enjoy the calm, rational, non-personal discussions that are possible with him and my ISTJ. I don't find his demeanour at all intimidating (though I see how other types might), and many of the things others complain about regarding him are things I actually quite like.

    I wouldn't ever advise someone to change themselves in an endless and futile quest to 'please them all'. As long as you're pleasing some, and especially the ones who are important to you, you're fine as you are. Those you don't please aren't forced by any law to like you or befriend you, nor you them. They can go do the other thing, and find people they can like without having to try to change them.
    The way Person A describes or criticizes Person B says more about Person A than B.

    Adjectives are double-crossing scoundrels.

  10. #60
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    The way Person A describes or criticizes Person B says more about Person A than B.

    Adjectives are double-crossing scoundrels.
    Yeah it can do, I've often thought that too. Depending though on the relationship between A and B, it might say just as much about both of them. People at close quarters like spouses, siblings, parents and children, close house mates etc, I think are in a better position to make reliable judgements about each other where the only thing they tell you about person A is that they're shrewdly observant
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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