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  1. #41
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    ESFP's are perceived as the ultimate warm types. They are pleasant to be around and are do not destabilize you in your world views. INTJ's, on the other hand, are the ultimate competent types. They tend to put others ill at ease and challenge their thinking.
    I like that perspective, although I have found many an INTJ who lacks both warmth and competence. What would INFJs be the "ultimate" types of? Or is it only limited to warmth and competence?

  2. #42
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Well I haven't met any who were like that.
    I did immediately think of my ISTJ friend when I read Kiddo's example dialogue, but I also see traces of my INTJ in there as well. But the INTJ is often like that when he feels like 'being difficult', while the ISTJ is like that all the time, because... haha, well, he just really sees the world that way!! lol
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Why do people have negative views about INTJ's? Simply because people use two fundamental dimensions when evaluating others: comptence and warmth. Any person who is perceived as high in one will be automatically perceived as less high in the other as a form of compensation. We tend to like warm people, however we tend to envy competent people. We want competence for ourselves and warmth in others.

    ESFP's are perceived as the ultimate warm types. They are pleasant to be around and are do not destabilize you in your world views. INTJ's, on the other hand, are the ultimate competent types. They tend to put others ill at ease and challenge their thinking.

    I think many people envy INTJ's. They like their competence and would want it for them. They also see INTJ's as competitive and threatening compared to, say, ESFP's.

    Of course, as an ENTJ, I tend to really enjoy the company of INTJ's and find myself at ease with them. For example, I find myself feeling very much in peace and in harmony when surfing on INTJcentral. I resonate alot with the people there. My perspective is based on my observations of people's reactions to INTJ's and not on my reactions.
    I do not think it is a coincidence that all of my very best (female) friends are ENTJ.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I like that perspective, although I have found many an INTJ who lacks both warmth and competence. What would INFJs be the "ultimate" types of? Or is it only limited to warmth and competence?
    I think INFJ's tend to be seen as both warm and competent, but not as competent as INTJ's. There is a halo effect that makes it so that when people perceive you as warm *and* competent, they will tend to view your personality in an overly positive light as regards to both these dimensions. I believe INFJ's really give good impressions to other people.

    An INTJ who lacks both warmth and competence would be a very miserable and annoying individual indeed. Fortunately, I have never met such an INTJ!

    Quote Originally Posted by GirlAmerica View Post
    I do not think it is a coincidence that all of my very best (female) friends are ENTJ.
    I instantly feel at ease with INTJ's. We might not immediately become friends, but there's this sort of mutual respect thing that is enormous. Of course, it exists with other NT types... but while I will usually love ENTP's and INTP's for the arguing we can have and their challenging of my opinions, I will just as much love INTJ's for their understanding, calm and logic in our discussions. When talking with INTJ's, I always feel very much in harmony even if we are arguing. It's truly relaxing to be around INTJ's.

  5. #45
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Why do people have negative views about INTJ's? Simply because people use two fundamental dimensions when evaluating others: comptence and warmth. Any person who is perceived as high in one will be automatically perceived as less high in the other as a form of compensation.
    I'd say this is tied into self-image. A person with good self-image, confidence etc, may allow more good qualities for other people. I personally find it alien to me to use such compensation methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    We tend to like warm people, however we tend to envy competent people. We want competence for ourselves and warmth in others.
    Good analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    ESFP's are perceived as the ultimate warm types. They are pleasant to be around and are do not destabilize you in your world views. INTJ's, on the other hand, are the ultimate competent types. They tend to put others ill at ease and challenge their thinking.
    Hm. I don't find them enviably competent as you suggested. I find it easy to recognize their competencies. Yet I see that it's unneeded to complain on their shortcomings, as it's not an aggressive relationship that I seek with them. I don't feel the need to voice out my negative views on them almost ever - they have (had) diminished capability to enjoy social networks, and guessing as opposed to certainty. They annoyingly will rather stay quiet and passive when they would be required to go in the realm of hypothesis, educated guesses, fuzzy logic, uncertainties, incomplete information etc. Other handles it better than the other.

    All in all, I have a positive view on them. I balance things and see that I don't need one person (or type) to do everything. Wouldn't most people think the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I think many people envy INTJ's. They like their competence and would want it for them. They also see INTJ's as competitive and threatening compared to, say, ESFP's.
    Perhaps I'm too competitive to notice anything in them that would make me cautious of myself. But now that you say it, much of our talk circles around ideas, practices and subjects that would help us both to be more competetive. This is more so than what I've experienced with other types, but I like - not hate - them for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Of course, as an ENTJ, I tend to really enjoy the company of INTJ's and find myself at ease with them. For example, I find myself feeling very much in peace and in harmony when surfing on INTJcentral. I resonate alot with the people there. My perspective is based on my observations of people's reactions to INTJ's and not on my reactions.
    Well, that's interesting to hear. Perhaps I should ask what people think of me, if I'm so comfortable with INTJ's

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Good analysis.
    Thanks mate!

    Hm. I don't find them enviably competent as you suggested. I find it easy to recognize their competencies. Yet I see that it's unneeded to complain on their shortcomings, as it's not an aggressive relationship that I seek with them. I don't feel the need to voice out my negative views on them almost ever - they have (had) diminished capability to enjoy social networks, and guessing as opposed to certainty. They annoyingly will rather stay quiet and passive when they would be required to go in the realm of hypothesis, educated guesses, fuzzy logic, uncertainties, incomplete information etc. Other handles it better than the other.
    Well that's good. You are able to recognize others' competencies without feeling theatened by them. As to the rest, people have the faults of their qualities I guess!

    All in all, I have a positive view on them. I balance things and see that I don't need one person (or type) to do everything. Wouldn't most people think the same?
    No, I think you are different (probably due to your type) and see them in another light compared to most people. But your perspective is good.

    Perhaps I'm too competitive to notice anything in them that would make me cautious of myself. But now that you say it, much of our talk circles around ideas, practices and subjects that would help us both to be more competetive. This is more so than what I've experienced with other types, but I like - not hate - them for that.
    Good points. You enjoy being challenged too? I like the fact that with INTJ's things rarely become personal. What a pleasure to argue with such people!

    Well, that's interesting to hear. Perhaps I should ask what people think of me, if I'm so comfortable with INTJ's
    You sound like an enthusiastic and intelligent person if you want *my* opinion.

  7. #47
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    It's because we cut out the bullshit. We're the ultimate streamliners and everything is a means to an end. Unfortunately for other people, we also spend as much time in our heads as the outside world. I've been right next to people I've known for years before and didn't even notice them until they said something to me.

    INTJs think like dams. They build up all this knowledge behind a wall of what they believe is logic and objective insight, but they can't allow any doubt to creep in, otherwise little cracks would form and it could all come crashing through. They tend to be annoying because they only collect or believe information that supports the way they see the world.
    I disagree. It just appears this way because we only display the facts that we want to display. I constantly question my own beliefs and judgements to the point that I become very frustrated and confused until I find an answer that is suitable. If someone can prove me wrong...I will change my opinion. And there is no way that any well developed INTJ would "only collect or believe information that supports the way [we] see the world." We collect all information and the only information we dismiss is information that we do not find useful.

    Secondly, I would have to disagree with your analogy but this is very difficult to explain to a non-INTJ. We seek out and keep knowledge that is based on our N/F motives. We then use logic to filter through the knowledge and reap all of its possible uses. This is not something that others ever know because it only occurs in our head. We don't voice this (or even understand it, for some). Logic too us...is not as logic to an INTP. Logic is only the way we view the world...it is a tool that we use to help us reach our goals which are created from some mystical place of Epic Godliness and feelings of lack. Our true foundation isn't our T. It's our N...our own inner world.

    EDIT to add: I suspect that a lot of our feelings of "not quite ever reaching our goals" is due to the fact that we cannot accurately interepret what we, in fact, want. We have grand visions from our combination of Ni & Fi and then they are immune to being torn apart by our logic...which is how we interpret everything else.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  8. #48
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I disagree. It just appears this way because we only display the facts that we want to display. I constantly question my own beliefs and judgements to the point that I become very frustrated and confused until I find an answer that is suitable. If someone can prove me wrong...I will change my opinion. And there is no way that any well developed INTJ would "only collect or believe information that supports the way [we] see the world." We collect all information and the only information we dismiss is information that we do not find useful.

    Secondly, I would have to disagree with your analogy but this is very difficult to explain to a non-INTJ. We seek out and keep knowledge that is based on our N/F motives. We then use logic to filter through the knowledge and reap all of its possible uses. This is not something that others ever know because it only occurs in our head. We don't voice this (or even understand it, for some). Logic too us...is not as logic to an INTP. Logic is only the way we view the world...it is a tool that we use to help us reach our goals which are created from some mystical place of Epic Godliness and feelings of lack. Our true foundation isn't our T. It's our N...our own inner world.

    EDIT to add: I suspect that a lot of our feelings of "not quite ever reaching our goals" is due to the fact that we cannot accurately interepret what we, in fact, want. We have grand visions from our combination of Ni & Fi and then they are immune to being torn apart by our logic...which is how we interpret everything else.
    Usefulness? Goals? It would seem by your description that INTJs think in terms of achievement. What is required to succeed and what are the tools for accomplishing that desire? So would that mean in your mind, it's all a measurement? A measurement of what you know as compared to what the situation requires? Or is it a motivation to win despite the integrity of the argument? Or is it a demonstration of your capacity to understand the situation?

    You are making my Ni hurt!

    Now when I talk to INTJs I'm going to feel like I'm just an insignificant springboard for their ideas. Even if I made any headway in breaking down your ideas, you would never admit to it. You would just silently alter your thinking for the next encounter. What is the world to you? A testing ground for improving your point of view? It's like a backwards way from the way INFJs make sense of things. It's mind boggling.

  9. #49
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Usefulness? Goals? It would seem by your description that INTJs think in terms of achievement.
    I can't speak for all of us, but I certainly do. Everything is constantly being weighed and measured...nothing so much as ourselves. We seem intensely judgemental of the things around us, but it all pales compared to how we measure ourselves. It would do well for people to remember that the next time we say something rude/off putting to them. My entire life is spent improving myself and helping those around me to improve. Just look at my screen name...Metamorphosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo
    What is required to succeed and what are the tools for accomplishing that desire?
    I never know what is required to succeed. I just make myself belief that I will and I either do or do not. In the end, I'll never be successful/skilled/powerful/confident enough. And everything is a tool towards the end goal, whatever it is at the time. We are long range thinkers and plan accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo
    So would that mean in your mind, it's all a measurement? A measurement of what you know as compared to what the situation requires? Or is it a motivation to win despite the integrity of the argument? Or is it a demonstration of your capacity to understand the situation?
    This is where you have to draw a distinction between two different scenarious...the argument for fun, and the argument for purpose. In the former, I may not even believe the position I am arguing and I may conciously know that my argument is flawed, but believe that you won't notice it. It's a way of testing your opponent and finding flaws in both sides of the argument...like forging a piece of steel into a weapon. This is the kind of thing that entertains us. The latter, however, is more like a springboard for our ideas. If it is a serious issue, and you are trusted enough we will definitely disclose the fact that we are wrong on an issue and hash out the truth through dialogue. This is in the pursuit of truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo
    Now when I talk to INTJs I'm going to feel like I'm just an insignificant springboard for their ideas.
    You shouldn't. I know that we give off an impression of not caring about anyone, a lot...and while that is true for the vast majority of people...we are intenesely loyal to those who are important to us, even if we never let it be known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo
    Even if I made any headway in breaking down your ideas, you would never admit to it. You would just silently alter your thinking for the next encounter.
    Probably true, but it's not in an effort to negate your argument. It's more of a subconcious thing...although I don't like being wrong and it may take some time for an argument to sink in, depending on the form of its delivery (was it thought provoking? or did it just piss me off at the time?). However, just because I don't like being wrong doesn't mean that I won't admit to it. I would rather be wrong in the past and right in the present, than wrong all the time and never admit it.

    What is the world to you? A testing ground for improving your point of view? It's like a backwards way from the way INFJs make sense of things. It's mind boggling.
    This is entirely circumstantial so it's difficult to answer. It's more like a testing ground for improving...everything. Opinions/point of view/etc. is all temporary. What matters it the end goal and what I can do to achieve it. I am very much a believer in, "the end justifies the means."

    Hopefully, I helped clear it up some. I always learn new things about myself and others through dialogue like this...usually while I'm typing a reply.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #50
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    INTJs think like dams. They build up all this knowledge behind a wall of what they believe is logic and objective insight, but they can't allow any doubt to creep in, otherwise little cracks would form and it could all come crashing through. They tend to be annoying because they only collect or believe information that supports the way they see the world.

    For example, here is a simplified INTJ conversation....

    INTJ: The number of car accidents in this state has gone up this year and I blame drunk driving.
    INFJ: Ok, but there isn't any evidence to show that there are more drunk driving related accidents in the state so there could be other causes.
    INTJ: Drunk driving is responsible for most accidents in this country.
    INFJ: Ok, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the upward trend in this case is due to more drunk driving.
    INTJ: Are you saying that there wouldn't be fewer accidents if there were fewer drunk drivers?
    INFJ: That is beside the point, you are suggesting that there are more accidents in this state because of drunk driving, despite not having any evidence that there are more drunk driving related accidents.
    INTJ: Last year, 76% of accidents were caused by drunk drivers in this state. I would say that is evidence this state has a drunk driving problem.
    INFJ: Yes, the state has a problem, but that doesn't mean that the recent rise in accidents were due to drunk drivers.

    Do you see the pattern? The INFJ keeps suggesting something is wrong with the INTJ's argument. But the INTJ, rather than address the flaw in his thinking, continues to build an argument for why he believes drunk driving is responsible for the rise in accidents. This is typically the pattern of most conversations I have had with INTJs.
    Honestly, I agree with the INTJ so far. Perhaps the evidence wasn't sufficient, but there's no reason to believe that it's wrong, even if the statistics aren't relevant to the point. All you did was complain that using them that way was wrong, and claim their evidence wasn't sufficient, and thus they were automatically wrong. You didn't say anything that explained why you were right about it being due to other causes. If you had done that, it might have worked out better. You didn't say what would have shown that it was due to other causes, you only pointed out that those didn't show that, and claimed that the idea was automatically wrong based on that.

    I know that I personally am not willing to believe that something I think is wrong just because someone else says it is. They have to explain, in a way that I can understand, why it's wrong and something else is right, otherwise I won't believe it. I might pretend to accept it if I feel that the other person can't stand for me to disagree, but I'll never actually accept it.

    In case you're curious, I think that drunk driving is bad in any case, because it's very dangerous, preventable, and can lead to many deaths.

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