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  1. #71
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Another would be to consider the provision I have repeatedly mentioned, that it's not going to happen again. Cheating really can happen just once. "Not going to happen again" isn't guaranteed, either, of course. I'm afraid we simply have a difference of opinion on this matter. Or maybe I'm taking the hypothetical too far; the "not going to happen again" provision is an important component of my answer.
    You can't possibly know that it won't happen again. You're just one of those people that want to bury your head in the sand. (apt username!) "What I don't know, can't hurt me, right?"
    Wrong. The implications of cheating are far reaching. The problem is, once your partner has cheated on you AND lied/gotten away with it, it becomes incrementally easier to do it again. What if someone gets pregnant or contracts an STD? Once one lie is told it can often snowball into more and more lies to cover up the original one. In any event, if he/she has any sort of conscience the infidelity + the covering it up will poison your relationship in some way. I cannot see how any other outcome is possible.
    I think the problem is that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If I knew that my partner had cheated, I certainly would use that to make a decision about whether they deserve my trust, and I would probably conclude that they do not. However, if this was truly a one-time incident, I would have reached the wrong conclusion. One occurrence, with no definite implications for the future, is not enough information from which to draw reliable conclusions.
    So because you know you will overreact, you don't want to deal with honest disclosure? This seems like a very immature way of dealing with anything. Haven't you considered that you might forgive your partner? That you might learn something about him and your relationship which might draw you closer or enrich your life together? Or would you always just jump off the deep end?
    How is it respectful to tell people about something they don't want to know, and which shouldn't affect them or anyone else going forward?
    It's respectful because one assumes we are dealing with adults here, not children or ostriches.
    If you say something that makes you feel better and hurts someone else, I'd say that's pretty selfish.
    Why would it make you feel better? What if it doesn't make you feel better? What if it makes you feel like shit? Is it selfish then? And isn't it also selfish to deny your partner the option to unburden his guilt?
    You don't get it. This isn't about fear of consequences. It's about maximizing everyone's happiness. The consideration of people's happiness seems to be absent from all your calculations.
    Not at all. I just think happiness should be based on something solid, not a fantasy. I accept some people just want to hear what they want to hear. Maybe most do.
    You only seem to be considering the perspective of the cheater. You also don't seem to register that some people might feel differently than others about being cheated on. You apparently want the whole truth, unconditionally, so that you have all possible information and can base your decision on it. I understand that position, and it makes sense to me. Normally that's how I feel about things, too.
    No, I'm considering the Golden Rule. I would do for others (hopefully!) what I would want done for myself. Which is to be given the information so that I can make an informed choice. No one has the right to decide for me what I need to hear and what I don't need to hear to maximise my happiness. And I don't have that right over anyone else.
    In this particular instance, the "won't happen again/no future repercussions" provision is a huge out: it basically means that I don't need this information, because it's irrevelant to anything else that will happen. In fact, having this information would almost certainly mislead me in attempts to judge this person's trustworthiness in the future.
    That simply reflects your own poor judgment, nothing else. I tend to assume that most people are better at judging their own affairs, but maybe in your case that is a false assumption.

    I'm wondering how this works in practice. What do you say to your SO? "Honey, if you cheat once you'd better not tell me about it, but if you cheat twice, I want to know so I can dump your ass"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #72
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    You can't possibly know that it won't happen again.
    You're right, I can't. It's called a hypothetical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    You're just one of those people that want to bury your head in the sand. (apt username!)
    Wow, did you think of that all by yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    What if someone gets pregnant or contracts an STD? Once one lie is told it can often snowball into more and more lies to cover up the original one.
    I'm not getting the impression that you actually read my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    So because you know you will overreact, you don't want to deal with honest disclosure?
    In the situation I've outlined, I don't see it being helpful. Most people would find that type of disclosure hurtful, so if it doesn't have important ramifications for the future, there's every reason to avoid it.

    I've already acknowledged that we seem to have taken different perspectives on how realistic "never going to happen again" is, and indicated that we should probably just agree to disagree. It seems like your refusal to recognize that as an essential component of my answer is basically fueling our discussion at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    This seems like a very immature way of dealing with anything. Haven't you considered that you might forgive your partner? That you might learn something about him and your relationship which might draw you closer or enrich your life together? Or would you always just jump off the deep end?
    I don't know. I think I would have a very hard time getting past it. If I had to guess, no, I don't think I could ever forgive them. What really worries me is that I might stay in the relationship initially, but become controlling or jealous or vindictive until things eventually broke down and led to a permanent split.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    It's respectful because one assumes we are dealing with adults here, not children or ostriches.
    I wondered if you might say something like this. Because it seems like you're treating your hypothetical partner like a child, not an equal. You know what's best for them, and if they think otherwise, they're just wrong. I don't see anything respectful about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    Why would it make you feel better? What if it doesn't make you feel better? What if it makes you feel like shit? Is it selfish then? And isn't it also selfish to deny your partner the option to unburden his guilt?
    Many people feel relieved about unburdening their consciences. If you read other replies to this thread, you'll find indications of that. If admitting guilt makes you feel worse, I think it would be very hard to view that as selfish. If an admission of guilt makes you feel like shit, and makes the other person unhappy, I think you need to seriously consider whether this is really a good idea.

    Once again, though, you only appear to be considering a single perspective. You only seem to see this from the cheater's point of view, not considering the feelings of the victim. You also don't seem to have allowed for the possibility that your partner might feel differently about these things than you do.

    I think it's more selfish for a cheater -- who has caused the problem -- to insist on unburdening her/himself than for the victim to decide what s/he does and doesn't need to know or be spared possible heartache. The victim has no responsibility to allow the cheater to "unburden his guilt"*, though s/he also has no real way of preventing it if the cheater is determined to do so. All the power here lies with the cheater.

    * And you say I have a twisted sense of right and wrong? How does a person who has been wronged assume additional responsibilities to the one who wronged them? You have to allow them to unburden their guilt, or you're being selfish!

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    Not at all. I just think happiness should be based on something solid, not a fantasy. I accept some people just want to hear what they want to hear. Maybe most do.
    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you acknowleding that some people have a different platform for happiness than you do, but basically saying that they're wrong and you're going to impose your own standards on them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    No, I'm considering the Golden Rule. I would do for others (hopefully!) what I would want done for myself. Which is to be given the information so that I can make an informed choice.
    spamtar raised an interesting question: with whom must this information be shared? Is there anyone with whom it should not be shared?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    No one has the right to decide for me what I need to hear and what I don't need to hear to maximise my happiness. And I don't have that right over anyone else.
    Of course not. I wouldn't want someone making those decisions for me, either. I've been surprised that you seem to feel so strongly about taking that self-determination away from me. How is your position not "decid[ing] for me what I need to hear"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    In this particular instance, the "won't happen again/no future repercussions" provision is a huge out: it basically means that I don't need this information, because it's irrevelant to anything else that will happen. In fact, having this information would almost certainly mislead me in attempts to judge this person's trustworthiness in the future.
    That simply reflects your own poor judgment, nothing else. I tend to assume that most people are better at judging their own affairs, but maybe in your case that is a false assumption.
    <sigh> I'm going to spell this out as precisely as I can:

    * If we accept the the "won't happen again/no future repercussions" provision -- which you needn't do IRL but which is critical to understanding this discussion -- then the partner's cheating has no future repercussions. Straightforward so far, right?

    * If this information is shared, it might lead the cheater's partner to believe the cheating will occur again. By definition, by the paramaters of this hypothetical, that is not actually a possibility.

    * Therefore, this assumption -- that cheating could occur again -- is incorrect, and the shared information has led to a misjudgment regarding the cheater's trustworthiness in the future.

    Point A --> Point B.

    And surely you acknowledge that even people of good judgment occasionally make mistakes? Perfect knowledge of the future seems like an awfully high standard to avoid being guilty of poor judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    I'm wondering how this works in practice. What do you say to your SO? "Honey, if you cheat once you'd better not tell me about it, but if you cheat twice, I want to know so I can dump your ass"?
    Haha, I like that. I can't recall ever having an explicit discussion about "What To Do If You Cheat On Me". I suppose I rely on the information I have available to make informed judgments and decisions. I normally do want all the available information. Uytuun suggested that INTJs can handle this kind of admission and that it might not be a big deal. Speaking for myself, I don't believe it's likely that I would respond in a constructive way. Therefore, if there was reasonable certainty that it was an isolated incident in a healthy relationship, I think I would be happiest not knowing about it. That's obviously not the case for you, but I don't see why it's so important to you to change my mind. You're not planning to cheat on me, are you, sweetheart?

    Anyway, I kind of like your idea better. "Honey, if you cheat once you'd better not tell me about it, but if you cheat twice, I want to know so I can dump your ass."

  3. #73
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    I do read your posts. My impression is that you are kinda irrational and emotionally immature.

    I will now modify my world view so that if I am ever in a relationship with an irrational, emotionally immature, INTJ female and I cheat on her, I won't tell her about it so as to spare her feewings and her propensity to become a jealous, controlling, vindictive homicidal maniac. OK? Thanks for your input.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #74
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    This is just one INTJ's standpoint, but I'd want to know the truth if I were him.

    Probability is that a lie would eventually come to light. Whereas there is some chance that he will be willing to work it out if you confess, the chance decreases exponentially if he finds out you thought you could hide it from him.

    Toughen up and take what's coming. It won't kill you or him.
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    Ni > Te > Ti = Fi > Ne > Si = Fe > Se

  5. #75
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I will now modify my world view so that if I am ever in a relationship with an irrational, emotionally immature, INTJ female and I cheat on her, I won't tell her about it so as to spare her feewings
    See? That's all I ask.

  6. #76
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Ne can be a frightening and dangerous thing when it begins to emerge. With it brings an unexpected amount of external focus. We begin to want to experience things rather than just think about them. The Ne adolescence can be a tumultuous phase of life.

    Maybe when things settle some, and if you're still with your bf and want to continue the relationship, it would be a good time to start having general discussions about Ne.

  7. #77
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    In the situation I've outlined, I don't see it being helpful. Most people would find that type of disclosure hurtful, so if it doesn't have important ramifications for the future, there's every reason to avoid it.

    I wondered if you might say something like this. Because it seems like you're treating your hypothetical partner like a child, not an equal. You know what's best for them, and if they think otherwise, they're just wrong. I don't see anything respectful about that.
    Whoa, are you for real? If my partner told me "if I cheat on you, I will be the bigger person and not tell you because I know it will ultimately hurt your feelings, and you might end up unfairly dumping me because you'll have a skewed view of my likelihood to cheat again," I think I'd dump them right then and there.

    The issue is not about which option is more self-serving...both can be performed with selfish motivations (e.g., disclosing infidelity to unburden guilt, not disclosing to avoid consequences.) The issue is rather that the partner deserves to be informed about events that bear directly on the relationship in which they are involved (so no, your slippery slope of self-disclosure argument doesn't fly here.)

    Not disclosing infidelity because you want to preserve your partner's feelings is presumptuous and paternalistic; presumptuous in that you presume that they'd rather avoid negative feelings than know the truth, and paternalistic in that you want to basically protect them from their own feelings and control their decisions about the relationship.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #78
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    If it really was a one time thing (sans emotional attachment), I'd rather not know. I am pretty sure I would self-destruct and/or sabotage our relationship even if all other things were great and it really never happened again.

    If it was indicative of deep dissatisfaction with our relationship, then I'd want to know so that the issues could be addressed.

    I compulsively tell on myself, so I would dump on my partner by confessing whether I believed it to be in his best interest or not. He would probably not leave me unless it was habitual, but he would lose all respect for me and I would really rather be dead than ever experience that.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  9. #79
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    The issue is rather that the partner deserves to be informed about events that bear directly on the relationship in which they are involved.
    That sounds more like a conclusion than an issue.

    If it is an issue it should be reframed: Does the partner deserve to be informed about a single instance of infidelity?

    If the decision is based on deservingness logical results would be a case by case determination on what is owed to the cuckold. Whether they deserve the good and bad disclosure brings. I would say that if they had admitted of cheating they would be closer to this abstract point of deserving to hear this bad news/retribution. Disclosure for the mere sake of disclosure however sounds like an unpersuasive argument. This type of disclosure is the near equivalent toward a relationship as that of sugar in the gas tank.

    On the other hand that action/omission would be more likely to result in the greatest good sounds like a preferred action. More Kaizan.

    Kra however brings up a good point on disclosure if it looks like the partner is going to find out anyway. That is why I was against the advise that OP discuss the matter with her friends. Friends are often not the most discrete holders of this advice. Being labeled a cuckold is a reputation that spreads like wildfire.

    The greater wrong is not the single instance of infidelity but having made the decision to "spill the beans", to make that confession to 'friends' rather that the boyfriend/girlfriend who is owed the duty of monogamy. In other words nobody deserves to know per se but if some body does deserve to know beyond the perpetrators it is the wronged boyfriend or girlfriend. Nothing is worse than being in a situation like that where you are the last to know. So if it were a one time infidelity by a girlfriend and I was the victim, I wouldn't want to know(call it sticking my head in the sand but there are some times when a little less history and a little more mystery is preferential) . However if she was telling her friends about it I would want to know so I could immediately kick the bitch to the curb.

    Then again there are serious boyfriends/girlfriend relationships and not so serious ones.

    At 20 a girl or boy would be best served with self discovery on what would be the ideal mate for them so the stakes are small and the decision marginal compared to a marriage. Maybe its a good idea to place on in this position for a relatively inconsequently relationship in order to appreciate how the complexities of infidelity would affect a more serious commitment to monogamy such as marriage.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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  10. #80
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hilo View Post
    I don't think I lack empathy, I just excised from my post all comments of the form "and I feel like a complete piece of shit for what I've done" because woe-is-me statements aren't really to the point. But you're not wrong that my basic actions were self-centered, or self-serving. Certainly. That's sort of the basic idea behind finding happiness, unless you think you can find it (strictly) by making others happy - which I think was actually my original mistake. I'm not seeking justification, just understanding so I can make the right decision going forward -- and that includes the future happiness of my bf, whom I care very much about and don't want to burn just because I behaved selfishly or was too cowardly to figure this out and just turned my brain off again and floated through life.
    There's a very easy solution to this: control your situation. You seem lost as to how this happened and why and blah blah. Even if you knew why this happened, it would not necessarily keep it from happening again. Controling whether or not to be alone with someone you're developing feelings for is far easier than controling your sex drive when you're getting hot and heavy.

    Whether or not to tell your bf is NOT something to ask random internet people who lack context and detail, BUT if you decide to tell him, it would be far more meaningful to say something like, "If I ever get feelings for someone else, I will cut them off, or never be alone in the same room with them," than "I love you so much, this will never happen again." At least, I would find the first statement more comforting because love wasn't enough to keep you from cheating in the first place.

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

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