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  1. #61
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Dont speak for me, spambot. I'd say nothing of the kind.
    Quote Originally Posted by hilo View Post
    So are there no circumstances (I mean any, not necessarily wrt relationships) in which you think lying is ok? I'm surprised to find an INTP so into moral absolutes. That kind of thing comes from conviction, which comes from Feeling - not T.

    I'm not advocating lying in my case or others - just curious. To give a overly dramatic example, if my (young) kid were dying of cancer I would definitely lie about it.
    I've yet to meet with a scenario where lying is justified (that's not to say one doesn't exist).
    This doesn't make me a moral absolutist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    What was suppressed?

    And why would bringing these suppressed feelings to the surface cause this rapid emotional transfer?


    Answering these questions will help guide your choices. If you want, you can answer them here, or on your own, but either way, figure it out.
    I want to repeat this because I think this is good advice. Of course I do, it's my advice. But here's why I think it's good advice (three main components):

    1. You can't make good choices about what to do without understanding what you are deciding on, or why you're in the position you are in.

    2. Some less than conscious part of you caused you to act in an unpredictable manner. Understand the mechanism behind this emotion, and you'll be able to effectively respond to and control it.

    3. This one is really a combination of the above two. You'll know why - or be closer to understanding why, you did what you did.


    I really think that finding an answer to those two questions (orig. post^^) is a good starting point, even before you tell your BF (which I strongly recommend). After all, what are you going to tell him? That you cheated on him. Why? How? Do you want to stay with him or the other guy? Or something else altogether?

    I think you figure out this part of you that you don't understand, and everything else becomes much more clear.




    Opinions on this course of action, anyone?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  3. #63
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Basically figure it out and tell on yourself?
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  4. #64
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    ^Trust and honesty are critical to you so you want your partner to lie to you when they cheat?
    Yeah...makes sense.
    No. Perhaps I should have phrased myself a little differently, but I don't think you read my post very carefully.

    I absolutely don't want them to lie. I want them to withhold the truth. A thin line, admittedly, but an important distinction in my mind.

    If I ask, I don't want a bullshit answer. But if I think everything is great, why would I want to know otherwise? If it's not going to happen again, and my partner hasn't contracted some horrible STI, how does it benefit me to know what happened? I'll just be upset, maybe end a relationship I otherwise could have been happy in.

    A breach of trust -- like cheating or lying -- would probably end the relationship. That's what I meant with the part of my last post you're referring to. Other than unburdening a guilty conscience, my partner has nothing to gain by admitting infidelity to me. Knowing about that kind of betrayal is going to make me unhappy, so as long as it has no implications for the future, I don't see what I have to gain by knowing, either. That's why I don't want them to volunteer this kind of information.

    It seems like a selfish move to make themselves feel better, at my expense, about something they did wrong.

  5. #65
    Senior Member hilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I want to repeat this because I think this is good advice. Of course I do, it's my advice. But here's why I think it's good advice (three main components):

    1. You can't make good choices about what to do without understanding what you are deciding on, or why you're in the position you are in.

    2. Some less than conscious part of you caused you to act in an unpredictable manner. Understand the mechanism behind this emotion, and you'll be able to effectively respond to and control it.

    3. This one is really a combination of the above two. You'll know why - or be closer to understanding why, you did what you did.


    I really think that finding an answer to those two questions (orig. post^^) is a good starting point, even before you tell your BF (which I strongly recommend). After all, what are you going to tell him? That you cheated on him. Why? How? Do you want to stay with him or the other guy? Or something else altogether?

    I think you figure out this part of you that you don't understand, and everything else becomes much more clear.




    Opinions on this course of action, anyone?
    It is very reasonable advice. It's temporarily a LDR so it's not like I don't have the space and time to think for a while. Point 2 is what is particularly concerning me here. I like to over-think and under-act as much as the next INTP, so seeing myself act in a totally unpredictable way was startling, to say the least. And then to just throw away all rationality for several days was even worse. The current situation sucks, to be sure, but in the background I'm also now wondering about my future - will I always have problems knowing my own feelings? Am I totally doomed to being a serial cheater? God, I hope not.

    But the idea of think first, act later is basically what I'm going with.

  6. #66
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    No. Perhaps I should have phrased myself a little differently, but I don't think you read my post very carefully.

    I absolutely don't want them to lie. I want them to withhold the truth. A thin line, admittedly, but an important distinction in my mind.

    If I ask, I don't want a bullshit answer. But if I think everything is great, why would I want to know otherwise? If it's not going to happen again, and my partner hasn't contracted some horrible STI, how does it benefit me to know what happened? I'll just be upset, maybe end a relationship I otherwise could have been happy in.

    A breach of trust -- like cheating or lying -- would probably end the relationship. That's what I meant with the part of my last post you're referring to. Other than unburdening a guilty conscience, my partner has nothing to gain by admitting infidelity to me. Knowing about that kind of betrayal is going to make me unhappy, so as long as it has no implications for the future, I don't see what I have to gain by knowing, either. That's why I don't want them to volunteer this kind of information.

    It seems like a selfish move to make themselves feel better, at my expense, about something they did wrong.
    So you basically want to trust someone who isn't worthy of trust.
    This makes no sense to me. I agree that lying and withholding information are not the same thing. But this is information that you use to make a decision about whether a person is deserving of your trust. To withhold it is to make your whole relationship a lie.
    It IS NOT selfish to confess to a wrongdoing. Not when it is done out of respect for the partner. It is the definition of cowardice to refuse to do so for fear of the consequences. You seem to have a twisted sense of right and wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by hilo View Post
    I'm also now wondering about my future - will I always have problems knowing my own feelings? Am I totally doomed to being a serial cheater? God, I hope not.
    What has knowing your feelings got to do with being a serial cheater?
    What are you, 5? You think you have to act on every feeling you have?
    I know it's easy for an INTP to be completely overwhelmed by feelings and to be so disconnected from themselves that it feels as though they are imposed by an outside agency, but you do have a say in all this. If you are that worried about your inability to exercise self-control, perhaps you should see a therapist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #67

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    1) Don't define yourself by your mistakes. Welcome to humanity- we humans screw up sometimes.
    2) What you did isn't as important as what you are going to do to make it right. You can't change what has already happened. Even if you want to.
    3) Honesty is the best policy. If you can't work it out then you will have to accept that and practice the lesson learned in a new relationship. If your SO does want to keep the relationship... you will have some things to work on. Do not blame.
    4) Be gentle with your SO and yourself. Breaking trust is a hard lesson. The idea that the person you love is capable of screwing up is a hard lesson too.

    Once- Accident.
    Twice - Coincidence.
    Three times - Pattern.

    Don't make it to Coincidence.

    The longer you are with someone, the greater the possibility that someone is going to make mistakes. You won't get away from the consequences and I think you know that. Concentrate on doing the right thing not on what you want to happen. Sometimes, we do the right thing and the consequences are bad. Sometimes, we do the wrong thing and the consequences are good. Just concentrate on the right thing to do.
    "We ascribe beauty to that which is simple; which has no superfluous parts; which exactly answers its end; which stands related to all things; which is the mean of many extremes." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #68
    He who laughs
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    seriously after reading all this I honestly dont understand what hilo wanted in the first place when she posted this. Did she want validation or what?

    About cheating and the other person there are a few things one have to think of. Can you be certain that the SO will never know of your indiscretion? Since the longer it goes the bigger a problem can be created and could course bigger distress to your SO. Also will the eventual disassociating feelings, because you are holding them back, make your SO unconsciously feel something is wrong and make the relationship drown in disasociated feelings? Remember after a long time of spending time with someone we get really good at noticing what causes the other distress or if he/she has a problem. What if telling him made your relationship stronger? It has happened a lot of times. Love can make us go through a lot for the other person. Aslong the other are not selfish and uses the situation ofcourse.

    Try seeing things completely from his perspective, dont let your own selfishness get a word in, thats my advice. Withholding information is not always the best idea. Also for your own piece of mind in the relationship.

  9. #69
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    No. Perhaps I should have phrased myself a little differently, but I don't think you read my post very carefully.

    I absolutely don't want them to lie. I want them to withhold the truth. A thin line, admittedly, but an important distinction in my mind.

    If I ask, I don't want a bullshit answer. But if I think everything is great, why would I want to know otherwise? If it's not going to happen again, and my partner hasn't contracted some horrible STI, how does it benefit me to know what happened? I'll just be upset, maybe end a relationship I otherwise could have been happy in.

    A breach of trust -- like cheating or lying -- would probably end the relationship. That's what I meant with the part of my last post you're referring to. Other than unburdening a guilty conscience, my partner has nothing to gain by admitting infidelity to me. Knowing about that kind of betrayal is going to make me unhappy, so as long as it has no implications for the future, I don't see what I have to gain by knowing, either. That's why I don't want them to volunteer this kind of information.

    It seems like a selfish move to make themselves feel better, at my expense, about something they did wrong.
    This is a very good point. It illustrates that there is a difference or balance between indiscretion and being honest. By adviseing discretion as opposed to confession to SO there seems to be a fringe of thinking that responds there is a affirmative duty to confess everything and not to do so is a lie. Where does it stop when self censor equates dishonesty? Is it dishonest to withhold from all your friends, his friends, his parents, the neighbors, some random guy walking down the street?

    Of course there is an extreme when the partner will not disclose anything about whats happening in their life. There is also a more common and anoying extreme of a partner who is a windbag and a shrew constantly tell you things you just don't want to hear. And then falling back and claiming their honesty and high integrity as the reason they are putting you through such tortures. There is a reasons there are such sayings as "silence is golden", if you are gonna say anything about someone, say something nice." and "ignorance is bliss".
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
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  10. #70
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    So you basically want to trust someone who isn't worthy of trust.
    I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Another would be to consider the provision I have repeatedly mentioned, that it's not going to happen again. Cheating really can happen just once. "Not going to happen again" isn't guaranteed, either, of course. I'm afraid we simply have a difference of opinion on this matter. Or maybe I'm taking the hypothetical too far; the "not going to happen again" provision is an important component of my answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    This is information that you use to make a decision about whether a person is deserving of your trust. To withhold it is to make your whole relationship a lie.
    Hyperbole much? Maybe your relationships tend to be shallow, but I see that as one aspect, not "the whole relationship".

    I think the problem is that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If I knew that my partner had cheated, I certainly would use that to make a decision about whether they deserve my trust, and I would probably conclude that they do not. However, if this was truly a one-time incident, I would have reached the wrong conclusion. One occurrence, with no definite implications for the future, is not enough information from which to draw reliable conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    It IS NOT selfish to confess to a wrongdoing. Not when it is done out of respect for the partner.
    How is it respectful to tell people about something they don't want to know, and which shouldn't affect them or anyone else going forward?

    If you say something that makes you feel better and hurts someone else, I'd say that's pretty selfish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    It is the definition of cowardice to refuse to do so for fear of the consequences.
    You don't get it. This isn't about fear of consequences. It's about maximizing everyone's happiness. The consideration of people's happiness seems to be absent from all your calculations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    You seem to have a twisted sense of right and wrong.
    Yeah, and yours is highly developed.

    You only seem to be considering the perspective of the cheater. You also don't seem to register that some people might feel differently than others about being cheated on. You apparently want the whole truth, unconditionally, so that you have all possible information and can base your decision on it. I understand that position, and it makes sense to me. Normally that's how I feel about things, too.

    In this particular instance, the "won't happen again/no future repercussions" provision is a huge out: it basically means that I don't need this information, because it's irrevelant to anything else that will happen. In fact, having this information would almost certainly mislead me in attempts to judge this person's trustworthiness in the future.

    We can agree to disagree on whether that provision is realistic, but if we accept it as part of the equation, I don't see your position being helpful to anyone involved.

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