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  1. #81
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    The micro part is definitely way off the mark, my first point was that excessive attention to detail is quite the opposite of what an ENTJ would be interested in/prone to doing.

    Yes, your definition of management correlates well to Te. Micromanagement does not. Here is how it is defined (through Wikipedia):



    So by definition, micromanagement is not something an NT would be prone to doing, since "personal level" corelates better to Fe users, and "attention to details" correlates better to Si users.
    Nobody disputed the idea that ESTJs micromanage more than ENTJs...so the comparison to Si doesn't seem relevant. Simply showing that ESTJs micromanage more than ENTJs doesn't really do much to show that ENTJs don't do it.

    Once again your whole argument is based on the flimsy premise that Ni doesn't like details. HINT: ENTJs use functions other than Ni, and the extroverted Te and Se functions are the only ones that are visible to others. Ni might not like details, but Te and Se do, and those are the functions others actually see.

    The question wasn't, "Do ENTJs think they're micromanaging?" The question was, "Do ENTJs come off as micromanagers to others?" Te+Se can definitely give that impression, regardless of Ni's quiet lack of interest in detail.

    Other than that, you're operating on oversimplified definitions of N/S. The idea that "Ss like detail and Ns don't" is an elementary rule of thumb intended to simplify the concept for people who don't understand functions.

    In other words, an ENTJ in the process of interacting with the outer world is going to be in Te and/or Se mode (which can and does focus on details in many situations!); Ni comes later when it's time for self-reflection.

    Read up on Te--it insists on accuracy and control to such a degree that, even if you don't think you're focusing on trivial details, it often comes off that way to others. Remember that, as extroverted functions, Te and Se are far more evident to others in their interactions with you--we can't see your Ni at work, so even if you don't mean to, you can frequently appear to be micromanaging.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Why is Te the function you would assign to micromanagement? I would say its most like an unhealthy manifestation of Fe, but all in all it is probably more of an enneagram thing. ENTJs are much more likely to say "I don't give a shit about how you do it, just get it done".
    I guess it depends on what one means by micromanagement. ENTJs certainly don't, in my experience, nor should they theoretically--if what one means by the term is obsessive attention to how another completes a task. That's consistent with Si; ISJs presumably being the worst offenders. Then again, the term is flexible and a lot depends on the recipient; Jimmy Carter is an INFJ and was accused of such, blah blah blah...

    Incidentally, I personally find SFJs far more annoying than STJs re: micromanagement; STJs generally respect logic even if your approach is a bit different, SFJs often have a method comprehensible to nobody but themselves; and it changes with the wind...
    Last edited by Fecal McAngry; 03-01-2010 at 11:45 PM. Reason: brain fart

  3. #83
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    The micro part is definitely way off the mark, my first point was that excessive attention to detail is quite the opposite of what an ENTJ would be interested in/prone to doing.

    Yes, your definition of management correlates well to Te. Micromanagement does not. Here is how it is defined (through Wikipedia):



    So by definition, micromanagement is not something an NT would be prone to doing, since "personal level" corelates better to Fe users, and "attention to details" correlates better to Si users.
    Isn't management still a part of micromanagement? Adding the stem just serves to express the overly-detailed nature of micromanagement as compared to normal management. Te is still the responsible function in both cases. And as I have said repeatedly, yes, TeSi may indeed make a person more inclined to micromanage than TeNi, but the essential Te nature of the behavior makes it something that an ENTJ might be prone to do. When we say someone is a micromanager, we mean that they are overly-controlling of every little aspect of the project/situation/operation/whatever, leaving little room for others involved to deviate or work at their own pace. I think that's something that could potentially be said of all Te types, and I'm failing to see why it couldn't be said of ENTJs.

    Also, I don't think I understand you when you say that the "personal level" of micromanagement makes it sound more like Fe. Are you using Michael Scott's definition of the term from The Office as a real, legitimate definition? 'Cause it's not...it was a joke on the show.
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  4. #84
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    The truth is that anyone can do 'personal micromanagement' and 'impersonal'. Just engaging in these behaviors does not make one either a Te or an Fe type. However, having the natural tendency to do one is highly correlated with having a Te type and the natural tendency to do the other with an Fe type.

    As for this debate, I'd side with Orangey that it is natural for an ENTJ to micromanage, however, since this type is Intuitive, it prompts a person to apply an abstract and somewhat innovative thinking to micromanagement. It does detract from the tendency to focus on the details and the concrete that is associated with micromanagement, however, not enough to undermine the tendency of micromanaging altogether as the Te influence remains substantial.

    The ESTJ has a similar, yet a slightly different natural disposition; there is a much weaker tendency to incorporate abstract notions into the micromanaging plan.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    TeSi may indeed make a person more inclined to micromanage than TeNi, but the essential Te nature of the behavior makes it something that an ENTJ might be prone to do. When we say someone is a micromanager, we mean that they are overly-controlling of every little aspect of the project/situation/operation/whatever, leaving little room for others involved to deviate or work at their own pace. I think that's something that could potentially be said of all Te types, and I'm failing to see why it couldn't be said of ENTJs.
    FJs can be as tyrannical as TJs, if not more so.

    NTJs really do tend to give you a LOT of latitude in how you get things done, provided you get them done.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Isn't management still a part of micromanagement? Adding the stem just serves to express the overly-detailed nature of micromanagement as compared to normal management. Te is still the responsible function in both cases.
    I don't understand what you are saying. Yes ENTJs are supposed to have a natural talent for management, how does this translate into exerting some sort of excessive control over somebody else's work?

    Si is actually an ENTJ's vulnerable function and according to socionics, they are prone to easily missing the details and being too vague. How does it then follow that an ENTJ would be LIKELY to tunnel in on small details? Excessive unhealthy Te for myself (and most likely other ENTJs from what I've seen) would more likely come in the form of demanding people get things done without helping them out in the least or bothering to tell them how to do it.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Remember that, as extroverted functions, Te and Se are far more evident to others in their interactions with you--we can't see your Ni at work, so even if you don't mean to, you can frequently appear to be micromanaging.
    Yeah, but Si and Se have completely different attitudes re: details. An Si user will viscerally be suspicious (if he or she cares) of a process which is unlike his or her own process, an Se user will generally not give a shit; will notice but not judge. Extroverted perceptive functions per se are very open and accepting...

  8. #88
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    FJs can be as tyrannical as TJs, if not more so.

    NTJs really do tend to give you a LOT of latitude in how you get things done, provided you get them done.
    Yes, Fe and Te can be similarly dictatorial. Why is that relevant?

    And I'm pretty sure that individual NTJs vary in their propensities for micromanagement, so ANYONE could bring anecdotal evidence to bear on their arguments here. If we're talking strictly about functions and their definitions, then I would say that micromanagement is mostly a Te phenomenon (or Fe, though in a different way/in different spheres.) We'll just say, as simulatedworld pointed out, that it's an extraverted judgment thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    I don't understand what you are saying. Yes ENTJs are supposed to have a natural talent for management, how does this translate into exerting some sort of excessive control over somebody else's work?

    Si is actually an ENTJ's vulnerable function and according to socionics, they are prone to easily missing the details and being too vague. How does it then follow that an ENTJ would be LIKELY to tunnel in on small details? Excessive unhealthy Te for myself (and most likely other ENTJs from what I've seen) would more likely come in the form of demanding people get things done without helping them out in the least or bothering to tell them how to do it.
    I don't know how to make this more clear. Micromanagement is a type of management. Te users (and Fe users I guess...but that's a needless irrelevancy that's been introduced into the conversation and would require its own argument/require us to suss out the distinctions between Te and Fe in the WAY that they each manifest management behavior) tend to exhibit management type behavior. Therefore if anyone is prone to micromanaging, it is going to be Te users, and ENTJs are Te users. That's not to say that they ALL do it, or that we can expect them to do it very frequently, or that they will do it more often than ESTJs/ISTJs (who have the detail-oriented Si), but just that their dominant Te makes them more likely than many other types to fall into micromanaging behavior.

    I won't address your Socionics bit because I don't think ENTJ and ENTj are the same thing.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post

    I don't know how to make this more clear. Micromanagement is a type of management.
    The type that is OPPOSITE from the type that an ENTJ would naturally use based on their functional order

    That is the whole point.

    It is a type of management that BY DEFINITION, relies on the use of Si. Overuse, rather.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I won't address your Socionics bit because I don't think ENTJ and ENTj are the same thing.
    If you think the 4th function in socionics is irrelevant, how about 7th function then, as it appears in MBTI?

    Are you saying that even though the definition of micromanagement calls for the use of Si, it is okay to dismiss the fact that an ENTJ does not use this function, just because they use the Te bit?

    What about NFPs then, who have both the Te and Si combo?

  10. #90
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    The type that is OPPOSITE from the type that an ENTJ would naturally use based on their functional order

    That is the whole point.

    It is a type of management that BY DEFINITION, relies on the use of Si. Overuse, rather.
    No, it doesn't rely on Si by definition. That's ridiculous and you made that distinction arbitrarily by yourself. You have not established that micromanagement involves Si "by definition"; don't kid yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    If you think the 4th function in socionics is irrelevant, how about 7th function then, as it appears in MBTI?

    Are you saying that even though the definition of micromanagement calls for the use of Si, it is okay to dismiss the fact that an ENTJ does not use this function, just because they use the Te bit?

    What about NFPs then, who have both the Te and Si combo?
    NFPs will occasionally act like STJs when in the grip of weaker functions, yes.

    But your whole premise that Si is always necessary for micromanaging is just blatantly wrong. Go read some basic definitions of Te, please.

    Any type can micromanage when in the grip of extroverted judgment--types that place extroverted judgment as a higher priority do it proportionally more often. End of story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Incidentally, I personally find SFJs far more annoying than STJs re: micromanagement; STJs generally respect logic even if your approach is a bit different, SFJs often have a method comprehensible to nobody but themselves; and it changes with the wind...
    This is an Fi/Te vs. Ti/Fe communication issue. I find SFJs far easier to understand, communicate with and work effectively with than STJs. This isn't surprising, given that I'm Ti/Fe user. I also find STJs to be much more annoying and incomprehensible than SFJs in most situations...again, just a question of sharing the same judgment preferences.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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