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  1. #71
    Pumpernickel
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well first of all I wasn't talking about relationships.
    When it comes to compulsive micromanaging to the point of treating boyfriends like employees, yes, it is.
    Try again, but this time with a little more heart!

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    "Proved", lol. You think "proof" for anything exists within a purely subjective pop psychology system? Oh please.
    LOL! K so you don't believe in the system at all then apparently... You're like one of those bible thumpers who picks and chooses what they want to take out of a system. OH LAWDY, DEM BE SOME FACTS!!!!

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    "Proved", lol. You think "proof" for anything exists within a purely subjective pop psychology system? Oh please.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Try again, but this time with a little more heart!
    I'd hate to see this idiot on the stand getting cross examined. Lul

  4. #74
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I don't see how it's controversial to say that ENTJs are more likely than other types (except the ESTJ) to resort to micromanagement as a solution to group-project problems. They are Te doms after all. And it would seem that Te is the only function you can really assign to the behavior that we're calling micromanagement. So who is more likely than a Te dom to micromanage people, a Te behavior? Sure, the detail-orientedness of micromanagement could be interpreted as requiring Si in addition to Te (ESTJs), but that doesn't mean that ENTJs aren't also predisposed, even if we grant that it may be to a lesser degree than their S counterparts, to micromanage. I would imagine that it's mostly in the Te, and that ESTJ's Si makes them more likely to do it than ENTJ's Ni, but both still do it more than other types.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #75
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Hmmm, I don't see how it's controversial to say that ENTJs are more likely than other types (except the ESTJ) to resort to micromanagement as a solution to group-project problems. They are Te doms after all. And it would seem that Te is the only function you can really assign to the behavior that we're calling micromanagement. So who is more likely than a Te dom to micromanage people, a Te behavior? Sure, the detail-orientedness of micromanagement could be interpreted as requiring Si in addition to Te (ESTJs), but that doesn't mean that ENTJs aren't also predisposed, even if we grant that it may be to a lesser degree than their S counterparts, to micromanage. I would imagine that it's mostly in the Te, and that ESTJ's Si makes them more likely to do it than ENTJ's Ni, but both still do it more than other types.
    ^ That's pretty much the whole idea. Nice job.

    A couple of ENTJs are pissy that their type is getting slammed, so they're whining about it. Boo hoo.


    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Try again, but this time with a little more heart!
    Try reading again, but this time with a little more attention span. Notice the obvious transition to a generalized context here:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I have a great basis for saying ENTJs like to micromanage people--and that's that I've noticed them doing it to myself and others (and many people complaining about it) in lots of different situations.
    I then went on to discuss managers and employees for the rest of my posts in the thread and haven't said anything about relationships in quite some time. Note how "in lots of different situations" broadens the context far beyond the limited scope of relationships.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #76
    Pumpernickel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Hmmm, I don't see how it's controversial to say that ENTJs are more likely than other types (except the ESTJ) to resort to micromanagement as a solution to group-project problems. They are Te doms after all. And it would seem that Te is the only function you can really assign to the behavior that we're calling micromanagement. So who is more likely than a Te dom to micromanage people, a Te behavior? Sure, the detail-orientedness of micromanagement could be interpreted as requiring Si in addition to Te (ESTJs), but that doesn't mean that ENTJs aren't also predisposed, even if we grant that it may be to a lesser degree than their S counterparts, to micromanage. I would imagine that it's mostly in the Te, and that ESTJ's Si makes them more likely to do it than ENTJ's Ni, but both still do it more than other types.
    Why is Te the function you would assign to micromanagement? I would say its most like an unhealthy manifestation of Fe, but all in all it is probably more of an enneagram thing. ENTJs are much more likely to say "I don't give a shit about how you do it, just get it done".

  7. #77
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Ack. The war has two theatres, does it?!
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  8. #78
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Why is Te the function you would assign to micromanagement? I would say its most like an unhealthy manifestation of Fe, but all in all it is probably more of an enneagram thing. ENTJs are much more likely to say "I don't give a shit about how you do it, just get it done".
    Well because to manage something is to exert control over the elements of that particular something. And to exert control over the elements of something is simply to impose an order onto them; to arrange and re-arrange; regulate; rule. That's definitional Te.

    Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively.
    Originally I thought that you were thrown by the "micro" stem, because that implies an over-attention to details in the process of management, which could point more towards Si (and ENTJs don't have Si in their top four functions.) But my point was that even granting that TeSi micromanages more than TeNi, the Te still places micromanagement well within the ENTJs domain.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #79
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Why is Te the function you would assign to micromanagement? I would say its most like an unhealthy manifestation of Fe, but all in all it is probably more of an enneagram thing. ENTJs are much more likely to say "I don't give a shit about how you do it, just get it done".
    Fe can and does micromanage too. It's a general function of extroverted judgment, the process of rationally applying predictable order and structure to the external world.

    In lots of situations it's a good thing, but sometimes it can go overboard. You're so busy getting pissed that I said something bad about your type that you haven't stopped to think about what Extroverted Thinking actually is and the system of dealing with life that this function label inherently implies.

    For the 67th time, not all ENTJs are seen as micromanagers, but it's relatively common for people to perceive them that way--because it's in their nature to organize and manage the environment (which often includes others) according to objective procedural standards.

    They don't mean to micromanage, but in their constant search for efficiency and logical organization, they may not recognize the value in other people's evaluations of their behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Personality Type, An Owner's Manual, pg. 283
    From an ENTJ's perspective, most people are illogical, and their opinions don't matter--except insofar as they determine the nature of our social assumptions. And it is here that the ENTJ's powers of analysis are usually trained--on the gulf between our Thinking-oriented system and people's actual capacity for Judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But my point was that even granting that TeSi micromanages more than TeNi, the Te still places micromanagement well within the ENTJs domain.
    +1
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #80
    Pumpernickel
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    The micro part is definitely way off the mark, my first point was that excessive attention to detail is quite the opposite of what an ENTJ would be interested in/prone to doing.

    Yes, your definition of management correlates well to Te. Micromanagement does not. Here is how it is defined (through Wikipedia):

    Webster's Dictionary defines micromanage as: "to manage with great or excessive control, or attention to details".

    Dictionary.com defines micromanage as: "to manage or control with excessive attention to minor details".[3]

    Encarta online dictionary defines micromanage as: "attend to small details in management: to control a person or a situation by paying extreme attention to small details".[4]

    Micromanagement was defined by Michael Scott on The Office (a satirical comedy) as "management on a more personal level," also known as 'microgement.'
    So by definition, micromanagement is not something an NT would be prone to doing, since "personal level" corelates better to Fe users, and "attention to details" correlates better to Si users.

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