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  1. #91
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    The type that is OPPOSITE from the type that an ENTJ would naturally use based on their functional order

    That is the whole point.

    It is a type of management that BY DEFINITION, relies on the use of Si. Overuse, rather.
    The act of managing something is a manifestation of Te (or Fe.) Si does not manage anything; it just makes the Si user more prone to paying attention to details. Combined with Te's (or Fe's) management capabilities, Si's detail-orientation MIGHT make types with those functions more likely to micromanage. I don't think anyone is saying that ENTJs micromanage MORE than STJs or ESFJs, so everyone is in agreement here. What I'm saying is that the recognition that STJs are bigger micromanagers than ENTJs DOES NOT mean that ENTJs don't typically micromanage. It just means, at most, that they are inclined to the behavior to a lesser degree than STJs.

    And I don't buy the argument that the presence of Ni in ENTJs completely disconnects them from micromanagement; unless you think that Te (or Fe) has absolutely nothing to do with the behavior, which is not a plausible position, then you are kind of forced to say that types with dom/aux Te/Fe have (to varying degrees within their own set, of course) a greater propensity for it than the majority that comprises the remaining, non dom/aux Te/Fe types. So even if you think that Te/Fe plays a miniscule part in micromanagement as compared to Si, you still have to admit that Te/Fe dom/aux types are more likely than, say, TiNe or FiNe types (with no extraverted judgment OR Si in the dom/aux position) to exhibit micromanaging behavior.

    But I don't think that micromanaging, which is to inappropriately exert control over little details of a project/other people/etc., necessarily comes from Si. Sure, Si users naturally pay more attention to detail than others. But that in itself does not translate over to the desire to control the little details of something/someone. There are plenty of STJs that have never micromanaged (meaning that it is not inevitable that SiTe or SiFe causes micromanaging behavior.)

    I think an extraverted judging function in a high position AND neurosis can make someone a micromanager, with or without Si. So yeah, a neurotic STJ will probably be a "worse" micromanager than a comparably neurotic ENTJ, but the ENTJs judging function (being Te) still makes it likely that they will manifest their neuroses in the form of micromanagement.

    In less words, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    your whole premise that Si is always necessary for micromanaging is just blatantly wrong. Go read some basic definitions of Te, please.

    Any type can micromanage when in the grip of extroverted judgment--types that place extroverted judgment as a higher priority do it proportionally more often. End of story.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    If you think the 4th function in socionics is irrelevant, how about 7th function then, as it appears in MBTI?
    Heh? I was just saying that the socionics types are not entirely equivalent to MBTI types with the same letter codes. I made the j on ENTj small to indicate that I was talking about socionics, because that's how their naming convention goes. I wasn't pointing out specific function positions by doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Are you saying that even though the definition of micromanagement calls for the use of Si, it is okay to dismiss the fact that an ENTJ does not use this function, just because they use the Te bit?
    Yes, basically. Except I don't think that the definition of micromanagement necessarily "calls for the use of Si." One does not NEED Si to be a micromanager. I think a greater portion of the behavior is due to Te (or Fe.) And the difference between a more hands-off manager and a micromanager is not the presence of Si so much as it is, I think, the presence of neurosis.

    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No, it doesn't rely on Si by definition. That's ridiculous and you made that distinction arbitrarily by yourself. You have not established that micromanagement involves Si "by definition"; don't kid yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    What about NFPs then, who have both the Te and Si combo?
    What about them?
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  2. #92
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    I prefer Capricorns and Pisces.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No, it doesn't rely on Si by definition. That's ridiculous and you made that distinction arbitrarily by yourself. You have not established that micromanagement involves Si "by definition"; don't kid yourself.
    It really depends on what the Villain in our story is nitpicking over. Sensory details as pertaining to methodology is certainly Si. Sensory details as pertaining to outcome could be...an ISTP, for example. Or an ISTJ. Values and ideological "purity" could be me. And so on. WHAT exactly is being "micromanaged?" WTF does that MEAN?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    The act of managing something is a manifestation of Te (or Fe.) Si does not manage anything; it just makes the Si user more prone to paying attention to details.
    No.

    Se also pays attention to details, but it has an extroverted (read: open, nonjudgmental) attitude. Si has an introverted attitude and in people with a strong preference for Si in conjunction with an extroverted judging function it "looks" much like Ti or Fi despite being a perceptive function--where I might square data with my values and accept or reject on that basis, or you might square with truth/logic and reject or accept or critique on that basis, Si squares sensory material with standards of familiarity/acceptance/known context/etc. As a consequence, "anal" is the IS_J's middle name when other functions are less developed.

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  5. #95
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    It really depends on what the Villain in our story is nitpicking over. Sensory details as pertaining to methodology is certainly Si. Sensory details as pertaining to outcome could be...an ISTP, for example. Or an ISTJ. Values and ideological "purity" could be me. And so on. WHAT exactly is being "micromanaged?" WTF does that MEAN?
    Fair point--every type gets highly particular and uptight about certain things. Those types dominant in extroverted judgment tend to get most particular about the way the external environment is organized--which leads to the form of "micromanaging" others that we're discussing here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Si squares sensory material with standards of familiarity/acceptance/known context/etc. As a consequence, "anal" is the IS_J's middle name when other functions are less developed.
    Right, but as a Perceiving process, Si only encourages the user to interpret things according to their relation to the familiar and to seek out perception of familiar kinds of information. When it comes to applying measured structure to our surroundings, the drive to do that comes from a judgment process.

    Si on its own can't micromanage anything except one's own personal perceptions about how to interpret our sense impressions.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Fair point--every type gets highly particular and uptight about certain things. Those types dominant in extroverted judgment tend to get most particular about the way the external environment is organized--which leads to the form of "micromanaging" others that we're discussing here.
    In my own experience, having worked for both ESTJs and ISTJs, ISTJs care a lot more about HOW you get to "X."

  7. #97
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    In my own experience, having worked for both ESTJs and ISTJs, ISTJs care a lot more about HOW you get to "X."
    That's interesting. Why do you think that is?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    That's interesting. Why do you think that is?
    The primacy of the Si. An analogy would be you vs. your hypothetical INTP twin Olaf. Olaf will pay considerably more attention to the logical purity of statements in conversation. You will let more of the illogical statements slide provided you get the gist or the essence of the intended meaning...

    I'm sorry about Olaf's mole, btw. Quite unsightly

  9. #99
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    The primacy of the Si. An analogy would be you vs. your hypothetical INTP twin Olaf. Olaf will pay considerably more attention to the logical purity of statements in conversation. You will let more of the illogical statements slide provided you get the gist or the essence of the intended meaning...

    I'm sorry about Olaf's mole, btw. Quite unsightly
    Right, but why is focusing on how you get to the desired goal more a function of Si than of Te? That doesn't really jive with this book you sent me. Te is described as focusing intently on making sure things are done according to the society-wide standards that govern the way things are supposed to be done, measured and evaluated. Te needs to be able to depend on the fact that when you do x, it always results in y.

    Si is described as more just encouraging us to map out our sensory experiences by relating them to something we already know, and leading us to continue seeking out the same type of information/facts on things that interest us.

    The desire for having a standard, precise and predictable methodology (and insisting that others follow it) seems more related to Te than Si.

    After all, Perception functions only experience reality as it comes. Judging functions are the ones that attempt to organize it rationally according to predictable standards...after reading Lenore, I think some of the risk-averse tendencies commonly associated with Si are actually more related to Te than many people think.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #100
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    No.

    Se also pays attention to details, but it has an extroverted (read: open, nonjudgmental) attitude. Si has an introverted attitude and in people with a strong preference for Si in conjunction with an extroverted judging function it "looks" much like Ti or Fi despite being a perceptive function--where I might square data with my values and accept or reject on that basis, or you might square with truth/logic and reject or accept or critique on that basis, Si squares sensory material with standards of familiarity/acceptance/known context/etc. As a consequence, "anal" is the IS_J's middle name when other functions are less developed.
    How does this contradict what I said? I never said that ONLY Si makes people pay attention to details. Additionally, I never attempted to describe the mechanism by which Si makes people detail-oriented (or "anal," as you put it.) Nothing you've said here, therefore, contradicts what I said in the statement that you quoted. All I intended to express in that statement was that Te and Fe are extraverted judging functions, and as such are primarily responsible for observed behaviors such as micromanagement. By contrast, Si is a perceiving function, and on its own does not do anything. Like you said, to appear to be doing anything, or to be operationalized in some sort of deliberate action, Si needs to be paired with an extraverted judgment function.

    All I've been trying to say to JustHer this whole time is that Te/Fe is the essential function behind micromanagement, as opposed to Si (I'm not sure at this point, but I think JustHer's argument is that Si alone is responsible for the behavior, not Te or Fe.) The implications of recognizing this are that ENTJs are (though perhaps to a lesser degree than STJs or even ESFJs due to their [ENTJ's] lack of Si) predisposed, by virtue of their Te, to micromanagement behavior. Now unless someone has some (convincing) way of arguing that no type is predisposed at all to micromanagement behavior unless they have Te/Fe + Si in their top-four function stack, or that Ni is some sort of absolute micromanagement preventative (neither of which do I think can be made), then there is nothing more to be said.
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