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  1. #11
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    @ the INTP from Finland:

    Why can't personality type change? No matter where a person stands on the nature-nurture debate, either environmental conditions or chemical-related gene-expressions could produce changes in behavior, and thus theoretically change their personality.

    (My theory on what happened to me in high school, which I cobbled together from two evolutionary psychologists' descriptions of stress-response as well as Helen Fisher's temperement theory, is that I adapted to the overpowering coercion of a stronger social group by increasing my reliance on emotional negotiation while decreasing my reliance on intellectual attack. This adoption of "tend-and-befriend" behavior lowered my testosterone levels, switching my personality from that of the NT Rational to that of the estrogen-drenched NF Idealist.)
    I'm no endocrinologist, but it seems to me it would be very difficult to change the amount of testosterone your body is predisposed to manufacture, just as it would be to change the amount of insulin, T3, T4, or growth hormone produced by your body. Those events are genetically coded.

    You can take medications to change your hormone levels, obviously, but I don't know that I've ever heard of psychological events changing endocrine system activity, especially in consideration of changing one's personality type. Hmmmmm.... <Thinking Out Loud> Prolonged depression might so long as it exists, maybe eh?
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  2. #12
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    Why can't personality type change? No matter where a person stands on the nature-nurture debate, either environmental conditions or chemical-related gene-expressions could produce changes in behavior, and thus theoretically change their personality.

    (My theory on what happened to me in high school, which I cobbled together from two evolutionary psychologists' descriptions of stress-response as well as Helen Fisher's temperement theory, is that I adapted to the overpowering coercion of a stronger social group by increasing my reliance on emotional negotiation while decreasing my reliance on intellectual attack. This adoption of "tend-and-befriend" behavior lowered my testosterone levels, switching my personality from that of the NT Rational to that of the estrogen-drenched NF Idealist.)
    even if your behavior changes that doesent change your type, you can learn to use different functions on situations that doesent come naturally from you. this can develop your type in a way that you can use some functions easier than you used to. for example intj can learn to use Fe if he uses it enough and even if he would notice that most situations involving other people go better with Fe and Te and he would start using Fe more when handling with people, that wouldnt mean that he would change to infj, it would just mean that he has developed his intj personality.

    maybe some heavy realization with hallucinogens or long time depression or something like that could change your type, but personally i think that you need to lose your mind big time to change your type
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #13
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    maybe some heavy realization with hallucinogens or long time depression or something like that could change your type, but personally i think that you need to lose your mind to change your type
    I think its necessary to lose your mind in order to survive all the shit life throws at you. Seriously.

    Lose your mind to save it! Regardless of your type!
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  4. #14
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    even if your behavior changes that doesent change your type, you can learn to use different functions on situations that doesent come naturally from you. this can develop your type in a way that you can use some functions easier than you used to. for example intj can learn to use Fe if he uses it enough and even if he would notice that most situations involving other people go better with Fe and Te and he would start using Fe more when handling with people, that wouldnt mean that he would change to infj, it would just mean that he has developed his intj personality.

    maybe some heavy realization with hallucinogens or long time depression or something like that could change your type, but personally i think that you need to lose your mind big time to change your type

    I enjoy the irony of this thread: it was started to point out the fact that there's no hard scientific evidence for MBTI as a whole, and yet it's ended with the assertion of undisputable veracity of obscure aspects of MBTI which are disputed even within MBTI.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #15
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I enjoy the irony of this thread: it was started to point out the fact that there's no hard scientific evidence for MBTI as a whole, and yet it's ended with the assertion of undisputable veracity of obscure aspects of MBTI which are disputed even within MBTI.
    Thanks TCDA--I'm laughing at the irony too, but I hope this thread is far from over!

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    even if your behavior changes that doesent change your type
    But isn't type determined by asking people about their behavior? It can only follow then, that if a person's normal pattern of behavior completely changes, by definition his type changes too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I'm no endocrinologist, but it seems to me it would be very difficult to change the amount of testosterone your body is predisposed to manufacture, just as it would be to change the amount of insulin, T3, T4, or growth hormone produced by your body. Those events are genetically coded.

    You can take medications to change your hormone levels, obviously, but I don't know that I've ever heard of psychological events changing endocrine system activity, especially in consideration of changing one's personality type. Hmmmmm.... <Thinking Out Loud> Prolonged depression might so long as it exists, maybe eh?
    You should read The Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doidge; he talks a lot about research in neuroscience, and how every change in behavior is linked to a change in neuronal cell networks in the brain. And of course, the brain controls a lot of our hormone levels, while the electrical transmissions between neurons themselves are only possible due to nuerotransmitters such as dopamine and serotonin.

    I once read an article about physical abuse in early childhood creating staggering increases in adrenaline, which in turn poisoned their fight-or-flight response by permanently activitating the genes which trigger adrenaline. Soldiers experiencing the trauma of war have the same epidemiology.

    PTSD can be treated with beta blockers that negate adrenaline's influence on the body, or with other medications that increase serotonin levels, which are also supposed to have a calming effect. Perhaps in the future doctors will just repair the damaged genes themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I think its necessary to lose your mind in order to survive all the shit life throws at you. Seriously.

    Lose your mind to save it! Regardless of your type!
    Wow, lol, I'm not sure what to make of that!
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules. -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

  6. #16
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    Also, it's interesting that Fisher says Negotiators are linked to estrogen, and past knowledge says estrogen is linked to femininity, since from biology we know that testosterone and estrogen levels affect vocal chord thickness. I've sung in choirs on and off throughout my life, and over the years I've noticed that sopranos tend to be more feminine in their dress and mannerisms than altos.

    I myself am a tenor, and last year I read that the average male voice speaks at around 110 Hertz--or A2 on the standard musical scale--yet my voice seems to speak around D3, which is about 147 Hz. The average female voice speaks around 220 Hz, which is A3.

    This is biological proof that I have more estrogen inside me then the average male, and good inductive evidence to support Fisher's hypothesis, since on personality tests I come out as an NF, Idealist, or Negotiator (which all roughly share the same traits).
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules. -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

  7. #17
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    But isn't type determined by asking people about their behavior? It can only follow then, that if a person's normal pattern of behavior completely changes, by definition his type changes too.
    Type is most definitely not determined by behavior. That's why it's not an empirically adequate theory; MBTI has very questionable bearing on behavior, either as a way to explain observed behaviors or to predict future behavior. Questions on an MBTI test that ask about your perception of your behavior hardly qualify as a real way of measuring your actual behavior. In any case, I don't think MBTI even purports to be a mostly (much less strictly) behavioral theory.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #18
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Type is most definitely not determined by behavior. That's why it's not an empirically adequate theory; MBTI has very questionable bearing on behavior, either as a way to explain observed behaviors or to predict future behavior. Questions on an MBTI test that ask about your perception of your behavior hardly qualify as a real way of measuring your actual behavior. In any case, I don't think MBTI even purports to be a mostly (much less strictly) behavioral theory.
    MBTI is indeed an empirical theory, though an incoherent one. As framed by Keirsey and popular folk typology authors, it is merely a collection of behavioral traits people routinely seem to exhibit. Jungian typology or the study of temperament better describe the enterprise that you seem to have in mind.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #19
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    MBTI is indeed an empirical theory, though an incoherent one. As framed by Keirsey and popular folk typology authors, it is merely a collection of behavioral traits people routinely seem to exhibit. Jungian typology or the study of temperament better describe the enterprise that you seem to have in mind.
    What do you mean when you say that MBTI is an "empirical theory?" I'm pretty sure that we're both aware that MBTI doesn't qualify as a scientific theory under any interpretation of the phrase, so I assume that you did not mean to equate "empirical theory" with scientific theory. But if MBTI is not a scientific theory, then in what sense can we call it an "empirical theory?" Certainly it has no empirical validity. I'll continue on my assumption streak and, well, assume that by calling MBTI "empirical" and a "theory" simultaneously, you did not mean to make reference to its (miniscule) level of empirical support.

    Or do you simply mean to say that MBTI is an "empirical theory" insofar as it is putatively (at least in the "folk typological" formulations) derived from someone's observations and subsequent classification of concrete behaviors? If that's the case (and it had better be, since I seem now to have exhausted my interpretive powers), I don't see how anything I said in my previous post contradicts what you're saying here.

    Namely, I said that:

    1. Your MBTI type code is not determined by behavior.
    This is true. Your MBTI type code is determined by self-report of your own behavior, not your actual behavior. The difference is huge.
    2. MBTI does not accurately explain the behavior that we observe.
    This is true as well. MBTI has been found to fail common statistical tests of validity. And that's not to mention its almost complete lack of empirical support.
    3. MBTI cannot accurately predict behavior across time and varying situations.
    Again, MBTI is not valid. It has not been found to measure anything useful and is consequently piss poor at predicting real behavior.

    My post was in response to ChildoftheProphets, who suggested that personality instability is the logical consequences of MBTI because MBTI tests determine people's types purely from behavior. In other words, if someone is an INTP because they behave as an INTP (per the behaviors prescribed by the theory), and they start acting like an ESFP one day, then they are no longer "really" INTP. They become ESFP. Personality is both unstable and indeterminate because people can change their behavior at any time.

    Keep in mind that I am taking "behavior" here to mean "observable, measurable displays of behavior." I think it's appropriate, too, considering that the type of behavior ChildoftheProphets is talking about is the type that others would notice as un-true-to-type.

    I decided to take this up by pointing out that a person's MBTI type is not in fact determined by behavior. It's determined by your subjective appreciation of your own behavior on a self-report personality inventory that you take on a particular day, under particular circumstances. As such, the type that you turn up with is in the most literal sense NOT determined by your behavior. Changing your behavior, then, will not result in a metamorphasis into a completely different personality type because the MBTI test did not determine your type by analysis of your behaviors.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #20
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What do you mean when you say that MBTI is an "empirical theory?".
    Generally, I take a theory to be any coherent set of propositions about the world. Since I've deemed MBTI incoherent, I cannot regard it as theoretical. As far as what empirical meant, I certainly had no intention of suggesting that MBTI can pass any standard of scientific investigation. One of your guesses regarding what I meant by that term was correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Or do you simply mean to say that MBTI is an "empirical theory" insofar as it is putatively (at least in the "folk typological" formulations) derived from someone's observations and subsequent classification of concrete behaviors??".
    Precisely, MBTI is an arbitrary collection of extremely vague assertions about the behaviors of people and how they define their characters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Or If that's the case (and it had better be, since I seem now to have exhausted my interpretive powers), I don't see how anything I said in my previous post contradicts what you're saying here. ??".
    There is no contradiction between our views, my purpose was merely to make an addition to your post rather than to refute one of your claims. I intend to draw a sharper distinction between MBTI and a study of temperament. This distinction is relevant because your previous conversation was about how a person's identity may be influenced by MBTI. However, at first, I think I've misinterpreted your post as suggesting that the study of MBTI was non-empirical because it dealt with a study of temperament. Yet, in your last post you've clarified that it is non-empirical for a different reason, because it cannot be supported by empirical evidence.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    My post was in response to ChildoftheProphets, who suggested that personality instability is the logical consequences of MBTI because MBTI tests determine people's types purely from behavior. In other words, if someone is an INTP because they behave as an INTP (per the behaviors prescribed by the theory), and they start acting like an ESFP one day, then they are no longer "really" INTP. They become ESFP. Personality is both unstable and indeterminate because people can change their behavior at any time. ??".
    I am puzzled by just one thing: why you even bothered responding to that.

    Keep in mind that I am taking "behavior" here to mean "observable, measurable displays of behavior." I think it's appropriate, too, considering that the type of behavior ChildoftheProphets is talking about is the type that others would notice as un-true-to-type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I decided to take this up by pointing out that a person's MBTI type is not in fact determined by behavior. It's determined by your subjective appreciation of your own behavior on a self-report personality inventory that you take on a particular day, under particular circumstances.??".
    That determines the four letter code you'll receive as a result of your MBTI test, but not the nature of your temperament. Altogether, I insist on a sharp separation between MBTI and the study of temperament. To be clear, I am not claiming that you do not recognize this difference, but merely that it has not been clearly expressed in your post. Since the above discussion was about how MBTI impacts a person's identity, it is quite relevant. By separating MBTI from the study of temperament, we effectively show that a person's four letter code has little to do with their identity, temperament or solidified habits of thought and action.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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