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  1. #51
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I think I use Ti and Ni together occasionally but do not think it is a loop. Ti seems to be:
    - Organize information ideas into a logical/conceptual model of framework
    - Use my internal understanding to piece together how things work
    - Use precise words to describe how the model illustrates key concepts or steps
    - Make decisions based on the categories

    The use is somewhat situational. I've found that these types of models and frameworks can be an invaluable way to communicate things (picture is worth a thousand words) and help to clarify how something works. Maybe the use is from my job. I think I use Ni to determine which framework to pick, which ones to evolve or adapt for another purpose. I rarely use them without change. I have developed some of my own, which have been pretty good, but they are often based on something I've previously seen (for a completely different purpose). The key reason for doing this is that it is adaptive behavior for communication purposes.

    Does this sound like Ni and Ti together?

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  2. #52
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ I dunno, I think it sounds kinda Te. It sounds like an INTJ describing an INTJ's favorite way to get things done. Your step-by-step linear analysis for purposes of accomplishing some predefined goal seems Te-motivated.

    So maybe you're motivated by Te to assimilate some of the skills Ti users do well...just not for the same reasons. You could, perhaps, recognize that this approach serves some external goal and build conceptual frameworks for just that reason. Ti on its own is less purposeful; Ti people will build frameworks for understanding every discernible system that strikes their interest, just to feel a sense of accumulating knowledge and mastery. Knowing that you have a method which can solve any possibility the system could potentially throw at you (no matter how obscure or inapplicable to any useful goals!) creates a feeling of completeness which is very comforting...external applications are often irrelevant.

    Ni+Ti is usually pretty nonproductive without a counterbalancing extroverted function. Ti tries to build rule systems to explain things (frequently with little concern for getting anything done, from a Te perspective) and then Ni shoots them down as too arbitrary and requiring too much hypothetical, precise definition to be useful.

    In your case I'd probably describe it more as Ni making you perceptive to many different conceptual perspectives, and Te leading to a decision on which one is most applicable to some useful goal.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #53
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post

    Ni sees what it wants to see and makes it all sound sooo plausible. Fe said, "No, that's not how it is," yet it didn't/couldn't elaborate to a sufficient degree. A sufficient degree would probably mean weeks of dialogue and rehashings/revisitings. So Ti starts trying to grind it all down into an understandable pill to swallow.

    But Ti sucks ass because it's much nicer to remain irrational and see with Ni than Ti. So, even though some relief will be had after Ti has done its thang (relief that, for me, lasts maybe hours or days), stark reality ensues, and just doesn't feel very good or comfortable or settling; and Ni addiction will kick back in like the serpent in the Garden of Eden and be like, "That's not reeaallly how it is. Your intuition was really right all along, you know," and in that split second, the Mind's reality will feel even better than True reality, and you are tricked into eating the Apple, thinking all the time maybe This IS true reality, and that you were wrong to ever have listened to Ti in the first place.

    Then when the stuporous effects wear off, as they will, confusion enters because life in your head doesn't jive with life in the real world and you wonder why, eliciting Ti's help again..............

    Ni is a fucking drug. It's the true blue pill. I love it. But it can be hazardous to your health if it's not diluted with Fe (and Se?). (if you're an infj, Te if you're intj).
    This is exactly what I experience most of the time. I'm really not sure how comfortable I am with Ti... I tend to shut it down almost immediately most of the time. Unless it serves some kind of purpose or helps me to resolve something I get impatient with it. Plus, Te is usually MUCH better equipped to actually solve something for me so I just default to that and start making lists, writing up 'Pros and Cons' etc. Very rarely does Ti get out to play. I think it did more often when I was younger. To me it seems more the playground of the INTP. They delve into it like nothing I've ever experienced myself. I can follow them on some of their conversations where Ti has taken the lead, but afterwards I feel like I need a good dose of reality. And maybe a beer.

    I can relate to Ni being like a drug though. This probably sounds retarded... but Ni kind of... REPLACES Ti for me. It makes the connections that would otherwise take Ti a zillion years to come up with. I don't like to be forced to reckon with the details and I trust Ni quite a lot. Ti seems like a pointless exercise in trying to back up Ni so I don't go through the motions because I'm confident that I'm right without all that 'nonsense'. (How INTJ-ish ) To me it would be a waste of time to try to justify my intuitive insight. I take it at face value and then act on it with Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    The problem of the Loop:

    Ni: People are inherently good.

    Ti: Um, no they're not.

    Ni: Fine. People are inherently evil.

    Ti: Um, no they're not.

    Ni: Fine, people are inherently ambiguous.

    Ti: How're you gonna prove that?

    Ni: TRA LA LA LA LA

    Fe: Goddamn it, we need help!
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Se: YAY LET'S GO PARTY

    Ni: o_O

    Ti: O_o

    Fe: X_X
    This whole post was great lol. Thanks for posting, it made me laugh.
    Embrace the possibilities.

  4. #54
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I agree with sim about this sounding like Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    I think I use Ti and Ni together occasionally but do not think it is a loop. Ti seems to be:
    - Organize information ideas into a logical/conceptual model of framework
    - Use my internal understanding to piece together how things work
    I would think this is Te

    - Use precise words to describe how the model illustrates key concepts or steps
    This sounds like Ti to me

    - Make decisions based on the categories
    Te.. ?

    The use is somewhat situational. I've found that these types of models and frameworks can be an invaluable way to communicate things (picture is worth a thousand words) and help to clarify how something works. Maybe the use is from my job. I think I use Ni to determine which framework to pick, which ones to evolve or adapt for another purpose. I rarely use them without change.
    Changing something to make it better sounds like Ne too.



    MY understanding (and experience) of loops is that they are nonproductive. You are looping around and around because you are trying to find the door, but can't.

    One of my fav defintions of Ti is from lenore thompson's wiki:

    Ti types attune themselves to a harmony of things that emerges from the things and not from social agreement. They bring an understanding of natural law, doing the right thing even when the man-made law forbids it. Ti types explore the potential of things and the causes of things without regard for usefulness, predictability of results, comprehensibility to others, or possible clash with the social fictions that define people's loyalties.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  5. #55
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    *nods*

    Ti breaking apart information for understanding
    Te organizing information for efficiency
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  6. #56
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    The problem of the Loop:

    Ni: People are inherently good.

    Ti: Um, no they're not.

    Ni: Fine. People are inherently evil.

    Ti: Um, no they're not.

    Ni: Fine, people are inherently ambiguous.

    Ti: How're you gonna prove that?

    Ni: TRA LA LA LA LA

    Fe: Goddamn it, we need help!

    The way I see it, the problem with the Ni/Ti loop is that both of them sort of... directly contradict each other. You need your Fe or Te to come in and hold back the Ti first, and allow the Ni to elaborate before the Ti cuts things short.

    How the loop might be solved?:

    Ni: People are inherently good!

    Fe: Can you give me some examples?

    Ni: blah blah blah

    Ti: That's nonsense.

    Fe: Can you explain why?

    Ti: blah blah blah

    Fe: Is that always the case?

    Ti: Well I suppose there are exceptions...

    Ni: HMPH NYEH NYEH

    Fe: Okay, what else could we talk about?

    Ni: Well, I suppose sometimes people may behave differently depending on circumstances, upbringing, values, culture... things may not be as straightforward because other factors come into play

    Fe: And they are?

    Ni: blah blah blah

    Fe: Now we have both sides of the story, I can come to a reasonable conclusion and finish our essay.

    Se: YAY LET'S GO PARTY

    Ni: o_O

    Ti: O_o

    Fe: X_X
    This is clever and I like the post but all of your "Ni" voices are actually Ne. The N voice here is suggesting different possibilities and approaches across a wide variety of expansive information (E = expansive; I = extensive) and adapting immediately every time Ti shoots one of them down. "Maybe people are inherently good. No? Then maybe they're inherently bad. No? Then maybe they're ambiguous..." By implying that good/bad/ambiguous even exist as real, observable properties of external entities (and are therefore not solely a function of your personal perception), you are extroverting your intuition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Personality Type, An Owner's Manual
    "Extraverted Intuitives are right-brain types who deal with their sense impressions by unifying them into larger outward patterns. An ENP physician, for example, may realize, with sudden insight, that several unexplained symptoms are actually part of a single disease. As an Extraverted type, the physician has no doubt that the disease syndrome really exists. The pattern was always there, waiting for someone to discover it."
    Ni would be more like, "There's no such thing as inherent goodness or badness, only the way you interpret it. I could see this person as being good if I set my perspective this way, or I could see him as bad if I set it that way, but neither way is really ultimately better." Ni would be more likely to focus on one person at a time and consider the different ways we could interpret his behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Personality Type, An Owner's Manual
    "For INJs, patterns aren't 'out there' in the world, waiting to be discovered. They're part of us--the way we make sense of the riot of energy and information impinging on our systems. A disease syndrome is a useful construct, but that's all it is--an aggregate of observations attached to a label, telling us what to see and how to deal with it."
    But looking for an overarching pattern to describe similarities between and generalize about lots of people at once is very Ne. Extroverted functions look at a lot of different data all at once; introverted functions focus on one segment of it at a time and in extreme depth.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #57
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Ni/Ti is the WORST during essays! How would Fe or Te step in to fix things? If anyone finds the secret, I want to know! It's like Ni and Ti are two very different people who go around redoing and cancelling out each other's work constantly and leaving people in a constant state of flux without the work ever done!
    Dont you think Fe would step in to help by envisioning what your audience for said essay wants to hear? It gives direction on a more human scale. I know when I write essays I tend to have an idea/theory I want to convey and I can get stuck in a Ni/Ti loop with it, but then I just think, what would the person who this essay is being written for WANT to hear? Then I try to take a stab at it from that angle, and I can smooth over a lot of things I see as inconsistent, there is the stress of hoping no one sees my inconsistency, but I find usually that the assignment is to make an argument not to actually objectively solve a problem. Unless I was in a very specific field, but at that point, I would think Fe would be useless because my audience would be myself and lets face it, in some science fields research is never really finished or complete, it just keeps refining over time and I accept that this is where I may be stuck for NOW, and that the essay is more of a mid term summary then a complete analysis.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  8. #58
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    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-5w4-intp.html

    On the above forum cases are made for ISTP and TI-Ni loops, or perhaps an INTX who uses the function of their other INTX cousin with their own function.

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