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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ever fall into Ni/Ti thinking loop?

AphroditeGoneAwry

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What aphrodite said about her loop makes lots of sense.

Ni-has an internal perception and Ti makes a judgment


Now the Ti/Ni loop is more spastic. Ti makes a judgment and Ni says nope, doesnt match my perception here, back to Ti. Ti makes a judgment, Ni says nope, doesnt fit here. This is where Fe needs to step in and say, this is just the way it is, but Fe doesnt really know what to do, so Se has to step in and say just do something.

Are trying to make up to me for that shape shifter comment? Okay, forgiven. :wubbie: :smooch:
 

nightning

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Awesome example cloud... very Ni dominant thinking.

The only person who thinks like this and I can relate to is Bill Gates. He used his Ni along with his ti really well.
Well I wouldn't say that... there's a couple people who used to frequent this forum that have similar styles of thinking. Funny thing is most used to think they are INFJs but convinced themselves they are some other type (mainly INTs).

I obviously can't know him better than he knows himself, of course. Perhaps it's Ni Te? I still need to work on this.
No, it is not Ni Te... it truly is Ni Ti. You don't get that sort of thinking off an INTJ unless he's high on something. Te is more about putting things into its place as compared to Ti's way of understanding concepts. Which means Ni Ti can be more open-ended and playful when it comes to exploring ideas. As to the comment about Ni Ti vs Ne Ti... Ni and Ne are two very close faces of the same coin. Ti and Te slightly more distinct. Perhaps that leads to confusion.

Ni-has an internal perception and Ti makes a judgment

Now the Ti/Ni loop is more spastic. Ti makes a judgment and Ni says nope, doesnt match my perception here, back to Ti. Ti makes a judgment, Ni says nope, doesnt fit here. This is where Fe needs to step in and say, this is just the way it is, but Fe doesnt really know what to do, so Se has to step in and say just do something.
Really true for all cases?

It seems like there's different 'brands' of Ni Ti usage. The one I identify with aligns more with cloud's than aphrodite's...

My thoughts usually works like this.
Ni has an internal a-ha moment, Ti questions the validity of something. Not a judgement because tertiary Ti cranks through things slower. Not like how Fe shuts things down at all. Ti checks to see whether it makes sense. Basically working backwards to see if the Ni leap is correct. Kind of like checking the math when you've came up with a "shortcut" method of solving a problem. If things doesn't work out, then it backs up Ni to a part that is valid and let Ni take another leap.

I guess the difference between my variation and aphrodite's is that my Ni loves and respects Ti. (even if its an slow as heck idiot :D)
 

Polaris

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My thoughts usually works like this.
Ni has an internal a-ha moment, Ti questions the validity of something. Not a judgement because tertiary Ti cranks through things slower. Not like how Fe shuts things down at all. Ti checks to see whether it makes sense. Basically working backwards to see if the Ni leap is correct. Kind of like checking the math when you've came up with a "shortcut" method of solving a problem. If things doesn't work out, then it backs up Ni to a part that is valid and let Ni take another leap.
Yes, I can totally relate to this, except for me it's more about clarifying my insights than it is about actually checking their validity. I normally have absolute faith in them, and the only thing that will cause me to question them is having to make an important decision or deal with the sort of practical things that Ni isn't equipped to handle. In those cases, I tend to get caught in a cycle of second-guessing every insight I get and demanding logical proof for everything. Essentially, I'm so afraid of making the wrong decision that I stop trusting myself and get bogged down in analysis.
 

yenom

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Well, I am definitely not a J (so this rules out INFJ and XNTJ).

My Ni is weak. My Ti is far stronger.
And it is not a proof that I can think like a supergenius like Bill Gates.
Because most of the time, I am too lazy to think and analyze that deep.
Most of the time, my thinking is pretty simple.

My example is a proof that Ni and Ti can work together as whole rahter oppose each other.

But I do believe that if you are a true NT, you can use Ni and Ti together.
I think every NT type can use all four functions, Ne, Te, Ni, Ti. Its a matter of choosing which function you choose to use and make it as strongset.

My hypothesis is that NiTi thinking is very common among INTX type intellectuals (meaning very intelligent INTPs or INTJs), who think about things so out of touch with reality and way into the future like qunatum gravity and string theories that it only makes sense in their own introverted world. I think the more intelligent you are, the more you have this kind of thinking.

If you read a Brief History of Time, you can understand what I mean.
 

yenom

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To me, Ti is not about making a judgement or decision.

It is critical thinking, problem solving, and trying to understand complex theories and something like that. It is also kind of like internal logic and a very good bullshit detector.

I like imagining the future, and like to speculate about what the future is like.

Nevertheless, ,my Ni is not strong.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Well, I am definitely not a J (so this rules out INFJ and XNTJ).

My Ni is weak. My Ti is far stronger.
And it is not a proof that I can think like a supergenius like Bill Gates.
Because most of the time, I am too lazy to think and analyze that deep.
Most of the time, my thinking is pretty simple.

My example is a proof that Ni and Ti can work together as whole rahter oppose each other.

But I do believe that if you are a true NT, you can use Ni and Ti together.
I think every NT type can use all four functions, Ne, Te, Ni, Ti. Its a matter of choosing which function you choose to use and make it as strongset.

My hypothesis is that NiTi thinking is very common among INTX type intellectuals (meaning very intelligent INTPs or INTJs), who think about things so out of touch with reality and way into the future like qunatum gravity and string theories that it only makes sense in their own introverted world. I think the more intelligent you are, the more you have this kind of thinking.

If you read a Brief History of Time, you can understand what I mean.

Interesting proposition. Have you really thought about it a lot? Are you sure the INTJs are not utilizing Te, and the INTPs utilizing Ne? I know INTJs, not many INTPs (except on here).

If they do use both, is it really a question of intelligence, or something else? I'm seriously curious. Could it just be that the 'intelligent' ones you are talking about have a very strong, nearly 100% use, of their N and T preferences, which makes them appear, to you, more intelligent because they use Ni/Ne and Ti/Te better than most people are able to? Are they really smarter IQ wise? Or do they just appear smarter because they have such good faculty with N and T?
 

human101

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i think anyone on the extreme end of N is using both Ni and Ne especially if very introverted
 

nightning

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i think anyone on the extreme end of N is using both Ni and Ne especially if very introverted
Hmmmm care to clarify what you mean by that?

Just thinking along the line of what aphrodite mentioned in her post. How do you know what Ni and Ne or Ti and Te is exactly to tell whether the person is indeed using both. Or if the person is just versatile enough with the use of say Ni that on the outside, it resembles Ne?
 

Jaguar

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To me, Ti is not about making a judgement or decision.
It is also kind of like internal logic and a very good bullshit detector.

If that's the case, Ne must prevent Ti from detecting its own bullshit.
 

cascadeco

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The problem of the Loop:

Ni: People are inherently good.

Ti: Um, no they're not.

Ni: Fine. People are inherently evil.

Ti: Um, no they're not.

Ni: Fine, people are inherently ambiguous.

Ti: How're you gonna prove that?

Ni: TRA LA LA LA LA

Fe: Goddamn it, we need help!

The way I see it, the problem with the Ni/Ti loop is that both of them sort of... directly contradict each other. You need your Fe or Te to come in and hold back the Ti first, and allow the Ni to elaborate before the Ti cuts things short.

Actually I kinda like this.

I'm gonna remove the cognitive functions out of this, though, because it's just more annoying for me to factor them in. Basically: for myself, I interpret a 'loop' as being more of a negative connotation, meaning, I'm spinning around in circles and getting nowhere. For me, it usually means I have several theories, or several equally plausible perceptions, or way of looking at things, and I either can't hone in on any one, and I get caught up in the fact that I can often justify many of these various sometimes contradicting theories with logic/thoughts, or there's just so much data to work through that I haven't figured out yet how to tie it all together into a cohesive hole that encompasses all of it, wiping away the apparent contradictions so they don't have to be contradictions any longer. With the latter, the more complex the issue, the longer it'll take for me to smooth it all over. With the former, it quite often means I'm lacking critical data or focus that will help me hone in - I'm aimless in focus and flip from one to another perception - and I need to go external at this point.

Jennifer said:
Ti wants to rationalize through something, to understand and validate the idea (or refute it). Ni is a perception and there's usually no way for Ti to validate everything Ni is saying. Ti can disrupt an Ni flash of a situation, person, concept, etc., by derailing it and demanding too much explanation, killing it dead or making it ineffectual or inaccurate rather than just accepting the vision as true.

Meanwhile, Ni disrupts Ti by jerking the rug out from under Ti's feet. Ti only works if the parameters are defined, and Ni finds it very easy to drag out the "multiple scenario" card. If Ti says a certain answer is the answer, Ni says, "Well, maybe the problem is different than from what you've originally assumed and you're looking at things from the wrong angle." Ni "changes the rules" on Ti... or better yet, says "all rules are arbitrary." Ti does not like that, it needs a few anchor points on which to build its model.

:yes: I think this is really good too.
 

highlander

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I think I use Ti and Ni together occasionally but do not think it is a loop. Ti seems to be:
- Organize information ideas into a logical/conceptual model of framework
- Use my internal understanding to piece together how things work
- Use precise words to describe how the model illustrates key concepts or steps
- Make decisions based on the categories

The use is somewhat situational. I've found that these types of models and frameworks can be an invaluable way to communicate things (picture is worth a thousand words) and help to clarify how something works. Maybe the use is from my job. I think I use Ni to determine which framework to pick, which ones to evolve or adapt for another purpose. I rarely use them without change. I have developed some of my own, which have been pretty good, but they are often based on something I've previously seen (for a completely different purpose). The key reason for doing this is that it is adaptive behavior for communication purposes.

Does this sound like Ni and Ti together?
 

simulatedworld

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^ I dunno, I think it sounds kinda Te. It sounds like an INTJ describing an INTJ's favorite way to get things done. Your step-by-step linear analysis for purposes of accomplishing some predefined goal seems Te-motivated.

So maybe you're motivated by Te to assimilate some of the skills Ti users do well...just not for the same reasons. You could, perhaps, recognize that this approach serves some external goal and build conceptual frameworks for just that reason. Ti on its own is less purposeful; Ti people will build frameworks for understanding every discernible system that strikes their interest, just to feel a sense of accumulating knowledge and mastery. Knowing that you have a method which can solve any possibility the system could potentially throw at you (no matter how obscure or inapplicable to any useful goals!) creates a feeling of completeness which is very comforting...external applications are often irrelevant.

Ni+Ti is usually pretty nonproductive without a counterbalancing extroverted function. Ti tries to build rule systems to explain things (frequently with little concern for getting anything done, from a Te perspective) and then Ni shoots them down as too arbitrary and requiring too much hypothetical, precise definition to be useful.

In your case I'd probably describe it more as Ni making you perceptive to many different conceptual perspectives, and Te leading to a decision on which one is most applicable to some useful goal.
 

Misty_Mountain_Rose

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Ni sees what it wants to see and makes it all sound sooo plausible. Fe said, "No, that's not how it is," yet it didn't/couldn't elaborate to a sufficient degree. A sufficient degree would probably mean weeks of dialogue and rehashings/revisitings. :) So Ti starts trying to grind it all down into an understandable pill to swallow.

But Ti sucks ass because it's much nicer to remain irrational and see with Ni than Ti. So, even though some relief will be had after Ti has done its thang (relief that, for me, lasts maybe hours or days), stark reality ensues, and just doesn't feel very good or comfortable or settling; and Ni addiction will kick back in like the serpent in the Garden of Eden and be like, "That's not reeaallly how it is. Your intuition was really right all along, you know," and in that split second, the Mind's reality will feel even better than True reality, and you are tricked into eating the Apple, thinking all the time maybe This IS true reality, and that you were wrong to ever have listened to Ti in the first place.

Then when the stuporous effects wear off, as they will, confusion enters because life in your head doesn't jive with life in the real world and you wonder why, eliciting Ti's help again..............

Ni is a fucking drug. It's the true blue pill. I love it. But it can be hazardous to your health if it's not diluted with Fe (and Se?). (if you're an infj, Te if you're intj).

This is exactly what I experience most of the time. I'm really not sure how comfortable I am with Ti... I tend to shut it down almost immediately most of the time. Unless it serves some kind of purpose or helps me to resolve something I get impatient with it. Plus, Te is usually MUCH better equipped to actually solve something for me so I just default to that and start making lists, writing up 'Pros and Cons' etc. Very rarely does Ti get out to play. I think it did more often when I was younger. To me it seems more the playground of the INTP. They delve into it like nothing I've ever experienced myself. I can follow them on some of their conversations where Ti has taken the lead, but afterwards I feel like I need a good dose of reality. And maybe a beer.

I can relate to Ni being like a drug though. This probably sounds retarded... but Ni kind of... REPLACES Ti for me. It makes the connections that would otherwise take Ti a zillion years to come up with. I don't like to be forced to reckon with the details and I trust Ni quite a lot. Ti seems like a pointless exercise in trying to back up Ni so I don't go through the motions because I'm confident that I'm right without all that 'nonsense'. (How INTJ-ish :doh: ) To me it would be a waste of time to try to justify my intuitive insight. I take it at face value and then act on it with Te.

The problem of the Loop:

Ni: People are inherently good.

Ti: Um, no they're not.

Ni: Fine. People are inherently evil.

Ti: Um, no they're not.

Ni: Fine, people are inherently ambiguous.

Ti: How're you gonna prove that?

Ni: TRA LA LA LA LA

Fe: Goddamn it, we need help!
.
.
.
.
Se: YAY LET'S GO PARTY

Ni: o_O

Ti: o_O

Fe: X_X

This whole post was great lol. Thanks for posting, it made me laugh. :D
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I agree with sim about this sounding like Te.

I think I use Ti and Ni together occasionally but do not think it is a loop. Ti seems to be:
- Organize information ideas into a logical/conceptual model of framework
- Use my internal understanding to piece together how things work

I would think this is Te

- Use precise words to describe how the model illustrates key concepts or steps

This sounds like Ti to me

- Make decisions based on the categories

Te.. ?

The use is somewhat situational. I've found that these types of models and frameworks can be an invaluable way to communicate things (picture is worth a thousand words) and help to clarify how something works. Maybe the use is from my job. I think I use Ni to determine which framework to pick, which ones to evolve or adapt for another purpose. I rarely use them without change.

Changing something to make it better sounds like Ne too.



MY understanding (and experience) of loops is that they are nonproductive. You are looping around and around because you are trying to find the door, but can't.

One of my fav defintions of Ti is from lenore thompson's wiki:

Ti types attune themselves to a harmony of things that emerges from the things and not from social agreement. They bring an understanding of natural law, doing the right thing even when the man-made law forbids it. Ti types explore the potential of things and the causes of things without regard for usefulness, predictability of results, comprehensibility to others, or possible clash with the social fictions that define people's loyalties.
 

nightning

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*nods*

Ti breaking apart information for understanding
Te organizing information for efficiency
 

simulatedworld

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The problem of the Loop:

Ni: People are inherently good.

Ti: Um, no they're not.

Ni: Fine. People are inherently evil.

Ti: Um, no they're not.

Ni: Fine, people are inherently ambiguous.

Ti: How're you gonna prove that?

Ni: TRA LA LA LA LA

Fe: Goddamn it, we need help!

The way I see it, the problem with the Ni/Ti loop is that both of them sort of... directly contradict each other. You need your Fe or Te to come in and hold back the Ti first, and allow the Ni to elaborate before the Ti cuts things short.

How the loop might be solved?:

Ni: People are inherently good!

Fe: Can you give me some examples?

Ni: blah blah blah

Ti: That's nonsense.

Fe: Can you explain why?

Ti: blah blah blah

Fe: Is that always the case?

Ti: Well I suppose there are exceptions...

Ni: HMPH NYEH NYEH

Fe: Okay, what else could we talk about?

Ni: Well, I suppose sometimes people may behave differently depending on circumstances, upbringing, values, culture... things may not be as straightforward because other factors come into play

Fe: And they are?

Ni: blah blah blah

Fe: Now we have both sides of the story, I can come to a reasonable conclusion and finish our essay.

Se: YAY LET'S GO PARTY

Ni: o_O

Ti: o_O

Fe: X_X

This is clever and I like the post but all of your "Ni" voices are actually Ne. The N voice here is suggesting different possibilities and approaches across a wide variety of expansive information (E = expansive; I = extensive) and adapting immediately every time Ti shoots one of them down. "Maybe people are inherently good. No? Then maybe they're inherently bad. No? Then maybe they're ambiguous..." By implying that good/bad/ambiguous even exist as real, observable properties of external entities (and are therefore not solely a function of your personal perception), you are extroverting your intuition.

Personality Type said:
"Extraverted Intuitives are right-brain types who deal with their sense impressions by unifying them into larger outward patterns. An ENP physician, for example, may realize, with sudden insight, that several unexplained symptoms are actually part of a single disease. As an Extraverted type, the physician has no doubt that the disease syndrome really exists. The pattern was always there, waiting for someone to discover it."

Ni would be more like, "There's no such thing as inherent goodness or badness, only the way you interpret it. I could see this person as being good if I set my perspective this way, or I could see him as bad if I set it that way, but neither way is really ultimately better." Ni would be more likely to focus on one person at a time and consider the different ways we could interpret his behavior.

Personality Type said:
"For INJs, patterns aren't 'out there' in the world, waiting to be discovered. They're part of us--the way we make sense of the riot of energy and information impinging on our systems. A disease syndrome is a useful construct, but that's all it is--an aggregate of observations attached to a label, telling us what to see and how to deal with it."

But looking for an overarching pattern to describe similarities between and generalize about lots of people at once is very Ne. Extroverted functions look at a lot of different data all at once; introverted functions focus on one segment of it at a time and in extreme depth.
 

Billy

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Ni/Ti is the WORST during essays! How would Fe or Te step in to fix things? If anyone finds the secret, I want to know! It's like Ni and Ti are two very different people who go around redoing and cancelling out each other's work constantly and leaving people in a constant state of flux without the work ever done!

Dont you think Fe would step in to help by envisioning what your audience for said essay wants to hear? It gives direction on a more human scale. I know when I write essays I tend to have an idea/theory I want to convey and I can get stuck in a Ni/Ti loop with it, but then I just think, what would the person who this essay is being written for WANT to hear? Then I try to take a stab at it from that angle, and I can smooth over a lot of things I see as inconsistent, there is the stress of hoping no one sees my inconsistency, but I find usually that the assignment is to make an argument not to actually objectively solve a problem. Unless I was in a very specific field, but at that point, I would think Fe would be useless because my audience would be myself and lets face it, in some science fields research is never really finished or complete, it just keeps refining over time and I accept that this is where I may be stuck for NOW, and that the essay is more of a mid term summary then a complete analysis.
 
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