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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That is some seriously funny shit.
    d(Ti)/dx = 0
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  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    what makes Isabel Myers interpretation of Jungs theory superior to anyone elses?
    What makes Einstein's theory of relativity superior to my theory of peppermint chocolate gravitrons?

    What makes Shakespeare's depiction of the human condition superior to the drunk hobos staging a play down at the alley?

    the simple fact that it has proven reasonably accurate and feasible as a working system for hundreds of thousands of people, including pretty much everybody on this forum!
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  3. #73
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    d(Ti)/dx = 0
    Lolz.

    And d(Ni)/dx ? ?

  4. #74
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    so where if not from Jung did Isabel Myers draw her knowledge for her personality type theory? have you bothered to question the foundation of mbti? what makes Isabel Myers interpretation of Jungs theory superior to anyone elses?
    Myers extrapolated her own system from some of Jung's ideas. Thus, it's not going to conform to Jung, he just happened to offer a lot that correlated with Briggs' own ideas and she borrowed concepts from him. Her ideas even PREDATED Jung's published work...!

    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator
    ...These preferences were extrapolated from the typological theories originated by Carl Gustav Jung, as published in his 1921 book Psychological Types (English edition, 1923).[2] The original developers of the personality inventory were Katharine Cook Briggs and her daughter, Isabel Briggs Myers. They began creating the indicator during World War II, believing that a knowledge of personality preferences would help women who were entering the industrial workforce for the first time identify the sort of war-time jobs where they would be "most comfortable and effective."[1]:xiii The initial questionnaire grew into the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, which was first published in 1962. The MBTI focuses on normal populations and emphasizes the value of naturally occurring differences.[3]
    More specific history:
    Katharine Cook Briggs began her research into personality in 1917. Upon meeting her future son-in-law, she observed marked differences between his personality and that of other family members. Briggs embarked on a project of reading biographies, and she developed a typology based on patterns she found. She proposed four temperaments: Meditative (or Thoughtful), Spontaneous, Executive, and Social.[19][20] Then, after the English translation of Psychological Types was published in 1923 (having first been published in German in 1921), she recognized that Jung's theory was similar to, yet went far beyond, her own.[1]:22 Briggs's four types were later identified as corresponding to the Is, EPs, ETJs and EFJs.[19][20] Her first publications were two articles describing Jung's theory, in the journal New Republic in 1926 (Meet Yourself Using the Personality Paint Box) and 1928 (Up From Barbarism).

    Briggs's daughter, Isabel Briggs Myers, added to her mother's typological research, which she would progressively take over entirely. Myers graduated first in her class from Swarthmore College in 1919[1]:xx and wrote the prize-winning mystery novel Murder Yet to Come in 1929 using typological ideas. However, neither Myers nor Briggs were formally educated in psychology, and thus they lacked scientific credentials in the field of psychometric testing.[1]:xiii So Myers apprenticed herself to Edward N. Hay, who was then personnel manager for a large Philadelphia bank and went on to start one of the first successful personnel consulting firms in the U.S. From Hay, Myers learned test construction, scoring, validation, and statistics.[1]:xiii, xx In 1942, the "Briggs-Myers Type Indicator" was created, and the Briggs Myers Type Indicator Handbook was published in 1944. The indicator changed its name to the modern form (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator) in 1956.[21][22]

    Myers' work attracted the attention of Henry Chauncey, head of the Educational Testing Service, and under these auspices, the first MBTI Manual was published in 1962.

    It's really a system all to itself and will not conform to all of Jung's ideas.

    You can't really use Jung to say Myers is wrong. Why should Jung be considered superior to everything else? He just happened to be born first and recorded his ideas first; and some of his ideas were useful to Myers. That's all.

    And (note the bolded area!):
    Differences from Jung
    Judgment vs. Perception

    The most notable addition of Myers and Briggs to Jung's original thought is their concept that a given type's fourth letter (J or P) is determined by how that type interacts with the external world, rather than by the type's dominant function. The difference becomes evident when assessing the cognitive functions of introverts.[1]:21-22

    To Jung, a type with dominant introverted thinking, for example, would be considered rational (judging) because the decision-making function is dominant. To Myers, however, that same type would be irrational (perceiving) because the individual uses an information-gathering function (either extraverted intuition or extraverted sensing) when interacting with the outer world.

    Orientation of the tertiary function
    Jung theorized that the dominant function acts alone in its preferred world: exterior for the extraverts, and interior for the introverts. The remaining three functions, he suggested, operate together in the opposite world. If the dominant cognitive function is introverted, the other functions are extraverted, and vice versa. The MBTI Manual summarizes references in Jung's work to the balance in psychological type as follows:

    There are several references in Jung's writing to the three remaining functions having an opposite attitudinal character. For example, in writing about introverts with thinking dominant…Jung commented that the counterbalancing functions have an extraverted character.[15]:29

    However, many MBTI practitioners hold that the tertiary function is oriented in the same direction as the dominant function.[23] Using the INTP type as an example, the orientation would be as follows:

    * Dominant introverted thinking
    * Auxiliary extraverted intuition
    * Tertiary introverted sensing
    * Inferior extraverted feeling

    From a theoretical perspective, noted psychologist H.J. Eysenck calls the MBTI a moderately successful quantification of Jung's original principles as outlined in Psychological Types.[24] However, both models remain theory, with no controlled scientific studies supporting either Jung's original concept of type or the Myers-Briggs variation.[25]
    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    What makes Einstein's theory of relativity superior to my theory of peppermint chocolate gravitrons?
    It's not -- anything with chocolate in it is better!!

    Case in point:

    e=mc2 is far inferior to e=mchocolate2.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #75
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    its just not the truth. it's not that Ti folks are called INTP, its that INTP are accused of Ti. Ti folks are called INTJ and they are accused of Ni. this is because the four letter code adresses archetypes. its not something you can define as you wish. you can not. perceivers and judgers existed before anyone had discovered and labeled them. its only that some are unaware of their or anyone's archetypes (because the have no perceptive skills), but possibly aware of their functions, so they identify with the false function order and fake their archetype, meaning their 4letter dichotomy results. they cant fake their cognition though. nor their behavior. nor their enneagram types. so J-dominant people will always be "Judgers" in all dimensions but that of make-believe. you can not create reality by creating a theory. you just don't realize it, because you have never met reality. as jung points out, you stop at thinking.

    it's as easy for Pdoms to identify with their J while taking a 4 letter code test, as it is for Jdoms to identify with their P, we just have to focus on aspects that we actually do have "somewhere". it not a crime or a sign of madness. temporary identification is mostly subjective. but we can not fake our true preferences. they remain obvious from the outside.


    it's funny, even mbti agrees that perceivers are right brained, because that is obvious and some mbti guru guy and another copycat author write that they have aligned/compared brain types with 4-letter-dichtotomy-tested-people and they found out that introverted perceivers are right brained. but instead of reporting this as they have found it, they map the brain types with an unproved made up wishfull function-order-theory according to which introverted perceivers are attributed with Ti and ever since we read nonsense like "Ni is leftbrained". no its not. and Ti-Doms are not right brained either. IXXp (PiJe) are right brained. and the archetype of a perceiver is not available for definition, it's an obvious thing to any observer who is actually observing as opposed to projecting. the obvious archetype of the perceiver is in alignment with Si and Ni types meaning with right brained introverted people. and even more so with them, than with extroverted perceivers, as their archetype is a different animal which is primarily related to interaction and manipulation and the creative aspect of their perception is automatic/unconscious, while the original perceiver (the introverted one) is concerned with the conscious art of perception and unification of the world by means of perception, aka synthesis.

  6. #76
    Senior Member ObliviousExistence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    What makes Einstein's theory of relativity superior to my theory of peppermint chocolate gravitrons?
    thats quite simple actually, Einstein was a genius <edited>. Are you comparing Isabel Myers to Einstein? if so then FAIL!

    What makes Shakespeare's depiction of the human condition superior to the drunk hobos staging a play down at the alley?
    so basically what you are saying is that Isabel Myers understanding of Personality types is superior to Jungs?

    the simple fact that it has proven reasonably accurate and feasible as a working system for hundreds of thousands of people, including pretty much everybody on this forum!
    <edited>. How deeply have you looked into it? on what is MBTI founded?

    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    d(Ti)/dx = 0
    bad example, FAIL!

    I will give just a random example where the above equation is true, any real number would satisfy this equation

    lets assume Ti = 10

    then

    d(Ti)/dx = 0

    I'm guessing you failed calc 1?
    Last edited by ObliviousExistence; 02-25-2010 at 08:37 AM.

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    Are you comparing Isabel Myers to Einstein? if so then FAIL!
    No, I never once said that. I gave you a simple and self-depreciating analogy to explain why some systems survive better than others, hoping you would derive the obvious conclusion- that they do so because they work better than the alternatives. Clearly, I expected too much of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    so basically what you are saying is that Isabel Myers understanding of Personality types is superior to Jungs?
    It's all relative, subjective and depends on the context. I wouldn't be quick to judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    thats because the majority of people are probably retarded like you.
    And I suppose only a select few like you get to be the 'special' people, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    if Ti = 10
    then
    d(Ti)/dx = 0
    You cannot put a numerical value to a non-constant, and even if you could- you're missing the point entirely. In case you need me to spell it out for you, the statement that the joke is referencing DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
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  8. #78
    Senior Member ObliviousExistence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Myers extrapolated her own system from some of Jung's ideas. Thus, it's not going to conform to Jung, he just happened to offer a lot that correlated with Briggs' own ideas and she borrowed concepts from him. Her ideas even PREDATED Jung's published work...!
    you see dat dere does not make any sense, you first say Myers extrapolated her own system from some of Jung's ideas then you say her ideas PREDATED jungs published work? how is that possible?


    More specific history:



    It's really a system all to itself and will not conform to all of Jung's ideas.

    You can't really use Jung to say Myers is wrong. Why should Jung be considered superior to everything else? He just happened to be born first and recorded his ideas first; and some of his ideas were useful to Myers. That's all.
    sorry, but Isable Myers is a nobody who owes her fame to Jungs works, you can't compare the two that just retarded.

    And (note the bolded area!):



    It's not -- anything with chocolate in it is better!!

    Case in point:

    e=mc2 is far inferior to e=mchocolate2.
    case in what point, you haven't proven anything.

  9. #79
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    Based on my understanding of Jungs personality theory, it would seem that Introverted Intuition and not Introverted Thinking is the primary\dominant function for both INTP and INFP types.
    In that case, your understanding sucks.


    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    the secret is in the P
    P/J tells you which of the two primary functions is extroverted, not which is dominant.

    So IxxP types are dominant in introverted judgment, but are still P types because they use the Perceiving function to deal with the outer world.

    Same for IxxJ types; dominant in introverted perception--but still Js because they use the Judging function externally.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #80
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    you see dat dere does not make any sense, you first say Myers extrapolated her own system from some of Jung's ideas then you say her ideas PREDATED jungs published work? how is that possible?
    to be fair, the exact wording makes sense, because system is something else than ideas and ideas precede a coherent system. however i just don't believe that briggs had any ideas at all, that are similar to cognitive functions, before jung. i bet all she had were observations of skills and behavior. i have not seen a single writing of her that displays the kind of insight about how the mind works that i know from jungs writings - and the original mbti is obviously trying hard to avoid such insights and to focus on the "outside" of people.

    this is from wikipedia:

    The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) assessment is a psychometric questionnaire designed to measure psychological preferences in how people perceive the world and make decisions. These preferences were extrapolated from the typological theories originated by Carl Gustav Jung, as published in his 1921 book Psychological Types (English edition, 1923).[2] The original developers of the personality inventory were Katharine Cook Briggs and her daughter, Isabel Briggs Myers. They began creating the indicator during World War II, believing that a knowledge of personality preferences would help women who were entering the industrial workforce for the first time identify the sort of war-time jobs where they would be "most comfortable and effective."[1]:xiii The initial questionnaire grew into the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, which was first published in 1962. The MBTI focuses on normal populations and emphasizes the value of naturally occurring differences.


    note the boldified wording!

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