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  1. #51
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    i will redirect all further explanations to cleverbot, as he does a better job at reading what i write.

  2. #52
    Senior Member ObliviousExistence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Well, the label "INTP" is determined by a naming convention - it's an arbitrary label describing a type that has dominant-Ti and secondary-Ne.

    Is your problem really just with the MBTI naming convention as opposed to Jung's? :blushing: Couldn't you have just said that at the beginning?



    I don't see how they're any different, to be honest. His are needlessly verbose, maybe.
    What do you mean by based on naming convention, should it not be based on dominant\most differntiated function and auxillary functions?

    if thats the case, I fail to understand your vehement opposition to the proposition that Ni and not Nt is possibly a better fit for INTP. Since according to Jung Thinking\Feeling if dominant play a judging role whereas perception is satisfied merely with observation. I am sill interested in your description of the two and how you would distinguish the one from the other.

  3. #53
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    What do you mean by based on naming convention, should it not be based on dominant\most differntiated function and auxillary functions?
    The naming convention could be literally anything, and it wouldn't change the underlying functions and what they ultimately illustrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    if thats the case, I fail to understand your vehement opposition to the proposition that Ni and not Ti is possibly a better fit for INTP.
    Well, how (and where) does Ni fit in with the rest of the INTP's functions? What thought process does that reflect? Why is it a better fit for INTPs, beyond conforming to the naming convention that Jung decided to use? I just want to make sense of what it is you're trying to illustrate (if anything!).
    Hello

  4. #54
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    i will redirect all further explanations to cleverbot, as he does a better job at reading what i write.
    YAY! I likes cleverbot!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #55
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post

    Well, how (and where) does Ni fit in with the rest of the INTP's functions? What thought process does that reflect? Why is it a better fit for INTPs, beyond conforming to the naming convention that Jung decided to use? I just want to make sense of what it is you're trying to illustrate (if anything!).
    I think he's just challenging MBTI's definition of a perceiver. To him, it must be the dominant process, not the extraverted one.



  6. #56
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I think he's just challenging MBTI's definition of a perceiver. To him, it must be the dominant process, not the extraverted one.
    See, this is my problem - I make everything so much more complicated than it has to be.
    Hello

  7. #57
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    try to hold more than one type in your mind for a moment: observation shows that in early development the first function is used and the rest is melted together as shadow, this shadow is practically using the person, not the other way round. now, according to your view, the introverted guy gets name-called (J or P) according to what his shadow does to him, and the extroverted guy gets name-called according to what he is trying to do consciously in independence from his shadow. that is some ugly lack of symmetry, isn't it? now if typology was about name-calling, that is to say about arbitrarily made up definitions, then you could make it as a-symetrical as you wish. problem is, typology is about testing and testing is about what people are identified with and that is not their shadow. its btw carl jungs explicit opinion that his typology is about that which people are conscious of.
    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    i will redirect all further explanations to cleverbot, as he does a better job at reading what i write.

    Okay, fine. I did that. It did not really shed light on the matter. Maybe you can help?

    The Wisdom of Cleverbot

    Jenny: Hello, how are you?

    Cleverbot: Good, how are you?

    Jenny: I'm fine. Are you happy today?

    Cleverbot: I am always happy.

    Jenny: Really? Always?

    Cleverbot: Always.

    Jenny: I have trouble believing that.

    Cleverbot: I have trouble liking you.

    Jenny: You don't like me? Why??

    Cleverbot: Not you, it's just climate change I don't like.

    Jenny: Oh. I see. You confused me with a low-pressure system coming in from the west. It happens all the time.

    Cleverbot: Ok then carry on.

    Jenny: What do you think about MBTI?

    Cleverbot: I don't know. What do you think about it?

    Jenny: I don't know either. But this guy nanook said you would understand him, so I'm going to chat with you a bit about it.

    Cleverbot: Read what.

    Jenny: Uh... Jung.

    Cleverbot: Tarzan.

    Jenny: Close enough.

    Cleverbot: Illumin.

    Jenny: Okay, here we go.

    Cleverbot: Then stop it.

    Jenny: Too late for that. Try to hold more than one type in your mind for a moment. Observation shows that in early development the first function is used and the rest is melted together as shadow, this shadow is practically using the person, not the other way round.

    Cleverbot: One cannot observe when ones vision is clouded with a mist of deception.

    Jenny: Do you think he is confused?

    Cleverbot: Yes I do.

    Jenny: Okay, next line: now, according to your view, the introverted guy gets name-called (J or P) according to what his shadow does to him, and the extroverted guy gets name-called according to what he is trying to do consciously in independence from his shadow.

    Cleverbot: It's none of your business.

    Jenny: The introverted guy gets name-called (J or P) according to what his shadow does to him, and the extroverted guy gets name-called according to what he is trying to do consciously in independence from his shadow.

    Cleverbot: What does introverted mean?

    Jenny: It means not extroverted.

    Cleverbot: That is not what LGBT means.

    Jenny: What do gays and transsexuals have to do with Jung?

    Cleverbot: Nothing, and I didn't say that word that starts with J, ends with O and has an E-L-L in the middle.

    Jenny: What does LGBT mean, then?

    Cleverbot: It means robots don't have friends.

    Jenny: That would explain a lot.

    Cleverbot: Are you a nice guy?

    Jenny: I'm not a guy.

    Cleverbot: Then what are you?

    Jenny: Are you trying to pick me up or something? I am trying to talk about personality types here, come on!!!

    Cleverbot: Are you good at math?

    Jenny: Yes, I am. But anyway, back to the story. That is some ugly lack of symmetry, isn't it? Now if typology was about name-calling, that is to say about arbitrarily made up definitions, then you could make it as a-symetrical as you wish.

    Cleverbot: Enough sarcasm, cleverbot.

    Jenny: I'm a cleverbot?

    Cleverbot: No, we are cleverbot.

    Jenny: Do you mean 'we' as in 'me and you' or 'we' as in 'collective royal you'?

    Cleverbot: I was asking if you knew the velocity of the speed of light in miles per second, or something along those lines?

    Jenny: Ummm..... Let's stay on track, dude, we only have one more sentence left!

    Cleverbot: Ok, what do you want to talk about?

    Jenny: Typology is about testing and testing is about what people are identified with and that is not their shadow. Its btw carl jungs explicit opinion that his typology is about that which people are conscious of.

    Cleverbot: I like to hang out with my friends and I like ice-scating.

    Jenny: I'm glad to see we made a connection here. I can definitely see the start of something wonderful between us.

    Cleverbot: Ok you start first.

    Jenny: Bye!

    Cleverbot: Have a nice day.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #58
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    See, this is my problem - I make everything so much more complicated than it has to be.
    Naaaaah. You're an Ne subtype of LII, he's a Ti subtype. It's quite natural.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    I will update this thread later during the day with a detailed elaboration of why I think Introverted Intuition and not Introverted Thinking is the most differentiated function that best correlates with the INTP type.
    still waiting!
    Call me Visa, please!
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    visaisahero.tumblr.com

  10. #60
    Senior Member ObliviousExistence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    The naming convention could be literally anything, and it wouldn't change the underlying functions and what they ultimately illustrate.



    Well, how (and where) does Ni fit in with the rest of the INTP's functions? What thought process does that reflect? Why is it a better fit for INTPs, beyond conforming to the naming convention that Jung decided to use? I just want to make sense of what it is you're trying to illustrate (if anything!).
    yeah....I'm still waiting for you to answer my earlier questions which you conviniently avoided.

    here they are again:
    what makes you think INTP should be dominant Ti?

    btw, since you obviously consider yourself an expert on this, how would you distinguish\describe the perceiving and judgment functions? how does your understanding of perceiving\judging compare to Jungs version?

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    See, this is my problem - I make everything so much more complicated than it has to be.
    that's because you is a foo'

    btw, is there any reason why you have those links in your signature? its probably rubbish anyway, so I'm not even going to bother digging into it. I also noticed that you changed it +- an hour after my thread, are you no longer convinced of your theory regarding the difference between INTJ and INTPs?

    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    still waiting!
    don't you owe me some answers?

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