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  1. #41
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    'the hell is wrong with you people?

    Get yer own dominant function.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #42
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Admittedly these are all arbitrary groupings at the end of the day, but I still don't understand how a dominant-Ti type has dominant-Ni. To make that sort of statement is to ignore logical coherence as a praxis altogether.

    It's kind of like saying "I think 1 is actually 2" - all it does is confuse people, and ultimately contributes nothing. What point are you actually trying to put across? Is it that the general perception of INTPs is more in line with Jung's definition of Ni?
    Hello

  3. #43
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    I don't think people just have one function, even when they're young.
    try to hold more than one type in your mind for a moment: observation shows that in early development the first function is used and the rest is melted together as shadow, this shadow is practically using the person, not the other way round. now, according to your view, the introverted guy gets name-called (J or P) according to what his shadow does to him, and the extroverted guy gets name-called according to what he is trying to do consciously in independence from his shadow. that is some ugly lack of symmetry, isn't it? now if typology was about name-calling, that is to say about arbitrarily made up definitions, then you could make it as a-symetrical as you wish. problem is, typology is about testing and testing is about what people are identified with and that is not their shadow. its btw carl jungs explicit opinion that his typology is about that which people are conscious of.

  4. #44
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    how a dominant-Ti type has dominant-Ni. To make that sort of statement is to ignore logical coherence as a praxis altogether.
    try theory of mind. understand what is being said.
    it's your way of reading that reads logical incoherence into it.

  5. #45
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    try theory of mind. understand what is being said.
    it's your way of reading that reads logical incoherence into it.
    Careful, your Ni is leaking.

    Seriously though, if I can't relate what is being put forward to the existing system, I can't take anything away from it. (How's that for dominant-Ti, mister? ) To me, what he is saying is pretty much this:

    : "Hi, I think that what you think is probably wrong. Let me get your opinion of that before explaining what I mean."
    :

    I need more, is what I'm saying. Show me your working!

    note to self: too many smileys
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  6. #46
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    please stop the (a)social games, you'r acting all ENFJ
    this is not about him or me or how this dialoge is unfolding, it's about typology and reality.
    observe people for some years and also read carl jungs books, then you have "more".
    also you can have more, if you ask nicely or at least not as unkind as others did ...

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    ...observe people for some years and also read carl jungs books, then you have "more".
    That's good. Since MBTI has actually been pretty accurate for me personally, I find it useful. It's also been useful for many people I've observed, in understanding their behavior... and all from personal observation, so I guess it "counts" now?

    There has been a subset of people for whom it is not useful and so other ideas about personality development need to be explored in regards to them.

    The system stands alone apart from Jung, even if it was originally derived from ideas in his works, so I also don't see why the OP is trying to criticize MBTI for not conforming entirely to Jung's work. To whit: Who cares what Jung said? If you want to discuss MBTI, discuss MBTI; it's not Jung's.

    (And this is why I've avoided bothering much with this conversation: It seems to be a lot of quibbling about how apples and oranges look different.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    THIS APPLE PIE DOESN'T HAVE ANY PLUMS IN IT!!11!!! FAIL!!



  9. #49
    Senior Member ObliviousExistence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    SOME "INTP" who subscribe to the MBTI meme are correct about being "perceivers" AND they are correct about not beeing Ni types. they are either ISTp (not Ni but SiTe) or ENTp (not Ni but Ti&Ne). keep that in mind when arguing with people who call out bullshit on the notion of this thread and carl jung, without even reading or without thinking twice. a lot of people identify with INTP, not because of test results, [meaning not because of alignement with the 4 letter dichotomy, in this case with the the P-archetpye], but because of something they have read and what they have read was written by authors who believed that INTP are rooted in Ti so they tried to make Ti sound like its some kind of P-ish thing, meaning they described something that is like a mixture of a shy entp (they exist) and a psychotic (unstructured) INTj(TiNe). their writings are not rooted in observations of people who align with the P-archetype. observation is far too much work and does not pay back quick money, fame or power. instead they constructed virutal types (INTP profiles) from logical building blocks and tweaked the wordings until the contradictions are hidden underneath. needless to say, there is no aspect of development in their constructs, because no amount of bending words could justify the mbti function order once they had to deal with that.
    well said



    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Admittedly these are all arbitrary groupings at the end of the day, but I still don't understand how a dominant-Ti type has dominant-Ni. To make that sort of statement is to ignore logical coherence as a praxis altogether.

    It's kind of like saying "I think 1 is actually 2" - all it does is confuse people, and ultimately contributes nothing. What point are you actually trying to put across? Is it that the general perception of INTPs is more in line with Jung's definition of Ni?
    what makes you think INTP should be dominant Ti? if in fact it INTP is a perceiving intuitive type then the appropriate jung function-type would be introverted intuitive since introverted thinking according to Jung is a judging function which would\should correlate to INTJ.

    btw, since you obviously consider yourself an expert on this, how would you distinguish\describe the perceiving and judgment functions? how does your understanding of perceiving\judging compare to Jungs version?

    btw, that avatar suits you

  10. #50
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    what makes you think INTP should be dominant Ti?
    Well, the label "INTP" is determined by a naming convention - it's an arbitrary label describing a type that has dominant-Ti and secondary-Ne.

    Is your problem really just with the MBTI naming convention as opposed to Jung's? :blushing: Couldn't you have just said that at the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence View Post
    btw, since you obviously consider yourself an expert on this, how would you distinguish\describe the perceiving and judgment functions? how does your understanding of perceiving\judging compare to Jungs version?
    I don't see how they're any different, to be honest. His are needlessly verbose, maybe. [edit] the perceiving/judging part of the type names are different, though, but that's so arbitrary (and thus easy to "translate" from one system to another) that it's not even worth getting bothered about in my opinion!
    Hello

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