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  1. #101
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    also i am not at an early stage of development, i am at stage 6 (integral vision logic), so i am almost as much J as I am P. however stages transcend and include their predecessors. P is still my entry point and it is still who i am basically ("my self" rather than "me") as far as i can tell it will always be that way.
    Vocab alert -- can you explain this to those of us who are out of the loop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Just waiting on the demonstration that INTJs are dom Ne.
    ...You're not gonna get such a demonstration from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviousExistence
    one last thing, to those who proclaim the validity and unshakable foundations of mbti based on the fact that it has been used for years and by thousands of people. Since when did the majority of people believing something is true make it an actuality?
    Since when did anyone in this thread argue a point based on that premise?

    you mean this, "She identified meditative types, spontaneous types, executive types, and sociable types", lol, please be serious.
    Just because someone doesn't classify things the same way that you might doesn't mean it's not a valid attempt at classification. You ever yet figure out that you're just one among many different types of people, and if you want their respect, you need to be prepared to give some in return... or at least TRY to grasp where they're coming from even if you have a different starting opinion?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #102
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    my signature (the link in my signature) leads you to a synthesis of the stage models of all the schools of development of human spirit. i am not giving short introductions in my own words to this topic. here is an alternative link

  3. #103
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    my signature (the link in my signature) leads you to a synthesis of the stage models of all the schools of development of human spirit. i am not giving short cuts this topic.
    Uh, thanks. I didn't even have an idea of where to start.

    ("We are stupid and we will die" is not much of an intuitive segue into various stages of human development, you know.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #104
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    "We are stupid and we will die" is not much of an intuitive segue
    it's the rule. development is a temporary exception
    my mother has Alzheimer's, reminds me of that.

  5. #105
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    it's the rule. development is a temporary exception
    my mother has Alzheimer's, reminds me of that.
    okay. ... but you get what I am saying, right?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #106
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    i understand that my signature is a treasure, hidden on purpose. its my humor and my believe in synchronicity. there is a beautiful innocence in someone accidentally clicking on my signature and finding the wholy grail, maybe just when he was ready to find it.

  7. #107
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I think I'm probably being mean attacking these revolutionary ideas this way, but there's such a jumble here and it's frustrating. Just looking over the way the apparent protagonists are writing, it looks like an intellectual grenade was tossed with the purpose of allowing investigation, which would seem to be the very definition of a Ji in operation with the owner intending to either spell out the content of the Ji or to gobble up outside stimulus with a Pe before the smoke cleared. AND IT SEEMS TO ME IT *IS* POSSIBLE TO CHARACTERISE THIS DISCUSSION THAT WAY WITHOUT BEING CIRCULAR! While it's true that (regular) INTJ conspiracy theorists react much as the protagonist here have done, nonetheless [something].



    *frantic* must have explanation.


    Jung systematised to the level of what would currently be represented by the first three letters, yeah? So for Jung, INTJs and INTPs were both called (something like) introverts with thinking and intuition, yeah? And Izzy invented J/P to allow systematic differentiation of those introverts with intuition and thinking who had intuition as dominant and those that had thinking as dominant, yeah? And what we're seeing in this thread is a reinvention of that classification, which happens to be opposite to Izzy's? We are NOT seeing the suggestion that INTPs have special magical non-systematic access to, *gulp*, my realm? Phew.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #108
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    so J-dominant people will always be "Judgers" in all dimensions but that of make-believe. you can not create reality by creating a theory. you just don't realize it, because you have never met reality. as jung points out, you stop at thinking.
    I do hope you realize what an arbitrary and meaningless distinction this is. It's just a question of labeling and way you interpret P/J.

    If you start from the premise that xxxP must necessarily mean, "One who is dominant in Perceiving", then sure, you're right.

    It's always funny to me how socionics advocates will go on and on and on about what a travesty it is that MBTI "mixes up" the P/J digit for introverts, when in reality it's just a very minor discrepancy in the way the types are labeled.

    This is really a trivial issue based on labeling preferences...look:

    In socionics, P means "leading with a Perceiving function" and J means "leading with a Judging function."

    In MBTI, P means "extroverting the Perceiving function" and J means "extroverting the Judging function."

    You are judging MBTI labels based on socionics definitions of P/J, so of course it seems like all the introvert P/J labels are backwards to you. You're holding MBTI to a standard it doesn't purport to meet. This system is not incompatible with Jung--the rational types are EJ and IP, and the irrational ones are EP and IJ. It's really that simple.

    The advantage in labeling P/J MBTI's way is that types who share the same two primary processes are labelled with the same three last letters.

    So if we talk about NFJs, for instance, as a group, we know we are referring to people whose two primary processes are Ni and Fe, regardless of which is dominant over the other. This is not a conceptual difference, but merely an organizational one.

    Again it's just a question of how you choose to group and label function combinations--it doesn't change any substantial concepts. Your whole objection rests on the idea that you believe it's ridiculous to refer to someone dominant in introverted perception as a "Judger" or in introverted judgment as a "Perceiver", but this is such a minor issue based on such a trivial labeling discrepancy that it's extraordinary any of you actually care that much.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #109
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I think I'm probably being mean attacking these revolutionary ideas this way, but there's such a jumble here and it's frustrating. Just looking over the way the apparent protagonists are writing, it looks like an intellectual grenade was tossed with the purpose of allowing investigation, which would seem to be the very definition of a Ji in operation with the owner intending to either spell out the content of the Ji or to gobble up outside stimulus with a Pe before the smoke cleared. AND IT SEEMS TO ME IT *IS* POSSIBLE TO CHARACTERISE THIS DISCUSSION THAT WAY WITHOUT BEING CIRCULAR! While it's true that (regular) INTJ conspiracy theorists react much as the protagonist here have done, nonetheless [something].
    I'm still a little lost.

    There are, like, two people in this thread who seem to be having these ideas... and pretty solidly all the Ti+Ne people are saying WTF??! So why are you attributing this to us?

    Is there an NTP here who is in support of the OP?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #110
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ No, because the OP is whining about a trivial labeling discrepancy and pretending it represents a dramatic misunderstanding of Jung's ideas. Ti seems to understand this whereas Ni does not.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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