[NT] Prove yourself

[simulatedworld]

I knew he wasn't talking about you, since you are not a pretentious windbag.

I'm honestly quite appreciative that you'd say that in public. Thank you.

 

[Jaguar]

I'm honestly quite appreciative that you'd say that in public. Thank you.

You're not going to send me bunny slippers again, are you?

 

[simulatedworld]

You're not going to send me bunny slippers again, are you?

That was my last pair. I hope you hold on to them.

 

[INTPness]

A lot of you seem to be missing the point of this exercise, which is to emphasize the biggest hurdle in NT personal development--finding what value the real world and emotions has to offer you.

Because the NT temperament thinks abstractly without concrete or emotional checks and balances, it tends to self-inflict the very state of ignorance it initially sought to avoid. It is those with the deepest desire for truth who will bite into the hook of false knowledge the hardest (SW anyone?) Behind a wall of intellectuality, self-enabling thoughts are allowed to fester and the NT slips further away from the actual truth. As they lose their grasp, pride develops to protect the ego.

The end result is ironic, especially if the NT sees them self as a pedagogue, as others assume competence is the explanation for the intellectually haughtiness and develop misplaced trust in the false ego. They start to replace their accurate (albeit humble) knowledge for lofty theories (perhaps even mimicking them, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all) and the ignorance spreads. This also serves to bolster the NT confidence and usually sealing their fate.


I don't really care how you define success, but attempting to do so in a concrete manner is the first step towards overcoming the vicious cycle of intellectual masturbation and the ignorance it induces. By becoming more receptive to their concrete and emotional nature, the NT becomes a more balanced individual overall, ultimately fueling a greater degree of success through their preferred means.

This actually makes a lot more sense than your original post, IMO. This post includes some things that weren't touched on at all in the OP. And I can relate to it in *some* ways. I do believe, as simulated world said, that it's more of an NTP issue.

I will admit (and I'm not proud of it) that there have been times where I have kind of basked in this intellectual haughtiness myself. It usually happens when I'm discussing an issue with someone (perhaps a sensor) and I'm able to out-argue them just by pure logical skill and technique, but then I walk away and think, "That person actually knows more about the subject than I do; all I did was play devil's advocate and out-argue them."

And I do agree, at least for myself, that I'm more well-rounded and better able to connect with others when I pay time and attention to concrete details and to emotions/feelings. It may not necessarily make me "better", but more well-rounded. The reason I say I may not be "better" is because I believe I'm at my best when I'm operating within my strengths and talents - and those strengths (the things I'm best at and have gotten the best results at) are often abstract, relatively speaking. I don't think that "writing" is abstract - I actually think it's concrete - but, a lot of sensors see things like writing, composing music, and photography as "abstract".

If you show me how to troubleshoot an engine or give me tips on how to better interact with people, it definitely makes me more well-rounded. And I should place importance on those things. But, those still are not my natural strengths.

So, I don't know if this was the kind of "exercise" you wanted to engage us in, but I can feel what you're saying in your above post much more than your OP.

 

[simulatedworld]

He's correct that NTs can and should try to learn more about the S and F sides of life, but he's not correct that NTs have no accurate knowledge about anything and no definition of success.

 

[INTPness]

He's correct that NTs can and should try to learn more about the S and F sides of life, but he's not correct that NTs have no accurate knowledge about anything and no definition of success.

Agree 100%.

 

[foolish heart]

Oh, I figured since it was negative and could potentially be about me, you'd probably interpret it that way if at all possible.

I was referring to SolitaryWalker. Why do you think it was negative? He is a good example, no? Do you think this is about me putting down NTs?

If you want to know where I'm speaking from, my best friend of 10 years is a quintessential INTP and most of my friends besides him have been NTs since we get along well. I've worked closely with INTx for the last 3 years and spending time on the internet I've seen a fair bit of writing done by NTs here and elsewhere.

If I have any "beef" on the topic of intellectuality is that I dislike the notion that athletic types are stupid or meatheaded, but the reason I made this is because I genuinely like to see people develop for the better and I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut about some of my observations. Please don't take it personally, even if my wording is uncouth... that is just how I speak.

He's correct that NTs can and should try to learn more about the S and F sides of life, but he's not correct that NTs have no accurate knowledge about anything and no definition of success.

Of course not, that would be ridiculous claim to make. I am actually saying the opposite... because NTs are able to grasp abstractions they are usually quite accurate in speech, which I think is also why this paradoxical behavior develops. The most intellectually capable NTs tend to steer towards disaster if they do not retain a respect for concrete senses and emotional factors.

 

[INTPness]

And while we're on the topic of becoming "well rounded",

The idea that N's would be better served by concentrating more on their "S".........

is equal to........

The idea that S's would be better served by concentrating more on their "N".

I know many a sensor that could use some intuitive insight and a little more deeper thinking in order to see the bigger picture.

 

[Night]

If I have any "beef" on the topic of intellectuality is that I dislike the notion that athletic types are stupid or meatheaded, but the reason I made this is because I genuinely like to see people develop for the better and I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut about some of my observations. Please don't take it personally, even if my wording is uncouth... that is just how I speak.

I don't think you're uncouth. Just problematically imprecise to the extent that it damages your premise.

 

[foolish heart]

And I do agree, at least for myself, that I'm more well-rounded and better able to connect with others when I pay time and attention to concrete details and to emotions/feelings. It may not necessarily make me "better", but more well-rounded. The reason I say I may not be "better" is because I believe I'm at my best when I'm operating within my strengths and talents - and those strengths (the things I'm best at and have gotten the best results at) are often abstract, relatively speaking.

So, I don't know if this was the kind of "exercise" you wanted to engage us in, but I can feel what you're saying in your above post much more than your OP.

Absolutely. I would not even think it is a good idea for NTs to forsake their preference, what I am saying is that this preference actually gains effectiveness when the NT themselves retain a sense of concrete reality and emotions.

The OP is just a means to an end. It's like you say about "out arguing" someone. Were you really successful (gain) in that situation or just "win" intellectually? By forcing NT to face real world "success" (of course the definition is flexible) they can see how they shoot themselves in the foot with their own capabilities.

I know many a sensor that could use some intuitive insight and a little more deeper thinking in order to see the bigger picture.

If they can't realize it themselves, then they might just need you to slap them across the face with it. Err, I mean... demonstrate its value.

I don't think you're uncouth. Just problematically imprecise to the extent that it damages your premise.

I know this isn't a bulletproof statements which NTs like so much, but I still think the general idea is helpful! From what I read of your writing you are mature so that may explain why you don't relate to the pattern.

This is about all I can think of though. I'm hoping NTs can take the idea and run with it.

 

[onemoretime]

If I have any "beef" on the topic of intellectuality is that I dislike the notion that athletic types are stupid or meatheaded, but the reason I made this is because I genuinely like to see people develop for the better and I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut about some of my observations. Please don't take it personally, even if my wording is uncouth... that is just how I speak.

Why do NTs disregard a lot of this crap? Because they generally got a lot of shit from meatheaded SPs (not necessarily you) growing up. No one likes that.

The end.

 

[simulatedworld]

I was referring to SolitaryWalker. Why do you think it was negative? He is a good example, no? Do you think this is about me putting down NTs?

I agree he is a good example, but so am I sometimes. Not as good as him since, as an extrovert, I'm a little more connected to the real world, but yeah, it's still there.

Anyway your first post in thread was full of NT bashing and didn't seem to have much useful content. The ones you've made since then have been better.

If you want to know where I'm speaking from, my best friend of 10 years is a quintessential INTP and most of my friends besides him have been NTs since we get along well. I've worked closely with INTx for the last 3 years and spending time on the internet I've seen a fair bit of writing done by NTs here and elsewhere.

If I have any "beef" on the topic of intellectuality is that I dislike the notion that athletic types are stupid or meatheaded, but the reason I made this is because I genuinely like to see people develop for the better and I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut about some of my observations. Please don't take it personally, even if my wording is uncouth... that is just how I speak.

Well, many of us don't believe that about athletic types. I don't think you're being uncouth so much as inaccurate.

Some of your descriptions ring true with some NTs, but again, it's really mostly NTPs that you're referring to. Leave the NTJs out of this; they're totally different animals.

Of course not, that would be ridiculous claim to make. I am actually saying the opposite... because NTs are able to grasp abstractions they are usually quite accurate in speech, which I think is also why this paradoxical behavior develops. The most intellectually capable NTs tend to steer towards disaster if they do not retain a respect for concrete senses and emotional factors.

That's interesting, because you claimed both of those things:

They start to replace their accurate (albeit humble) knowledge for lofty theories

Why exactly does thinking about lofty theories induce loss of accurate knowledge?

I don't really care how you define success, but attempting to do so in a concrete manner is the first step towards overcoming the vicious cycle of intellectual masturbation and the ignorance it induces.

Why the assumption that most NTs haven't attempted to define success in any concrete manner? Maybe they consider themselves successful because their criteria for success are different from yours.

Anyway, you do have a point in that NTs should try to pay more attention to their S and F functions. That's kind of the whole point of typology--every type is supposed to try and pay more attention to the merit in its weaker functions. You could try considering the value of iNtuition a little bit more than you have, for instance.

 

[foolish heart]

Why exactly does thinking about lofty theories induce loss of accurate knowledge?

Why the assumption that most NTs haven't attempted to define success in any concrete manner? Maybe they consider themselves successful because their criteria for success are different from yours.

Anyway, you do have a point in that NTs should try to pay more attention to their S and F functions. That's kind of the whole point of typology--every type is supposed to try and pay more attention to the merit in its weaker functions. You could try considering the value of iNtuition a little bit more than you have, for instance.

I meant the NT's student who tries to emulate the NT and end up coming up with retarded theories beyond their own capability. sort of like my theory here, which apparently needs some work.

and I know some of these statements are not entirely true, like what is success? i cant say, but this isn't about me even if im the one throwing gasoline on the discussion.

 

[simulatedworld]

Well, you've done a reasonably decent job of describing a subset of mostly INTPs who are really detached from the world and have no idea how to deal with anything real.

But you haven't done much to describe the other NT types, really.

Success is relative to one's own definition of it. Whatever feels fulfilling and creates meaning for you is what makes you successful.

 

[Jaguar]

Well, you've done a reasonably decent job of describing a subset of mostly INTPs who are really detached from the world and have no idea how to deal with anything real.

Lint is real.

 

[simulatedworld]

Lint is real.

Well, I'm not an INTP, so what's your point?

 

[onemoretime]

Fabric softener, I think.

 

[Jaguar]

 

[Frank]

lol!





A lot of you seem to be missing the point of this exercise, which is to emphasize the biggest hurdle in NT personal development--finding what value the real world and emotions has to offer you.

Because the NT temperament thinks abstractly without concrete or emotional checks and balances, it tends to self-inflict the very state of ignorance it initially sought to avoid. It is those with the deepest desire for truth who will bite into the hook of false knowledge the hardest (SW anyone?) Behind a wall of intellectuality, self-enabling thoughts are allowed to fester and the NT slips further away from the actual truth. As they lose their grasp, pride develops to protect the ego.

The end result is ironic, especially if the NT sees them self as a pedagogue, as others assume competence is the explanation for the intellectually haughtiness and develop misplaced trust in the false ego. They start to replace their accurate (albeit humble) knowledge for lofty theories (perhaps even mimicking them, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all) and the ignorance spreads. This also serves to bolster the NT confidence and usually sealing their fate.


I don't really care how you define success, but attempting to do so in a concrete manner is the first step towards overcoming the vicious cycle of intellectual masturbation and the ignorance it induces. By becoming more receptive to their concrete and emotional nature, the NT becomes a more balanced individual overall, ultimately fueling a greater degree of success through their preferred means.

Why such a negative view of NTs? Maybe the reason alot of people aren't answering is because your not describing them. Seems your boxing in an awful lot of people based on a label that comes nowhere near being a unifying theory.

 

[yenom]

"The only difference between genius and insanity is success"

Why should the world take the NT intellectual as seriously as they take themselves? Use objective, real-world (sensor) benchmarks.

This question is so full of ambguity that it is almost impossible to answer.

All I can say is life is about experimentation and testing the limits.
When you have an idea, you really want to see how it works in reality.
I want to bend the rules of reality and play god. I want to see how far I can go. Why would I want to do that you ask?

Its like asking why create art when you have a blank sheet of paper?
Life is like drawing a picture in a blank sheet of paper, what choices you make will affect what outcome will occur. Seeing what choices you can make and what can happen in reality is what makes life so fascinating.

What is insanity, if you define insanity as being delusional and having an overactive imagination, then yes I am insane. We need imagination to make the impossible possible.