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  1. #1
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Default The moment you realize there's no dialogue possible

    between yourself and someone with an entirely different value system.

    I want examples!

    Here's mine

    Talking to a woman about the merits of competition, she is adamantly opposed to it. She presents me a situation from her experiences thinking it an argument against competition: A class of Inuits who refuse to answer questions so as not to demonstrate superiority over their classmates.
    wails from the crypt.

  2. #2
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Her example seems a good one of why competition is not a "natural law" of human society as many pseudo-philosophers claim.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    The example that most readily comes to my mind:

    My sister and I both grew up in the Christian church, but I'm very N and she's very S.

    Me: I mean, <that particular topic> isn't specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible!
    Her: OH YES IT IS.
    (Honestly... it's not... but her doctrine has developed a stance on it based on other concepts that she has chosen to read a certain way ... meaning that she considered it to be 'clear' to her and thus specifically mentioned. To me, it's not specific and it's based on certain assumptions. This happens a lot when I get into religious discussions with people.)

    When I get a sharp response that I immediately discern is based on particular assumptions that might or might not be true, I already know that we can't come to an agreement and it's not worth bothering with anymore. Unless the two frameworks can be reconciled, consensus is not possible.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #4
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
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    murkrow--

    I don't value "value systems," because some cultures are objectively superior to other cultures. Inuit culture has yet to produce a Dante, a Galileo, a Michelangelo, or a Brunelleschi. And I'm just comparing them to a single European city.

    Usually I let a conversation drop if it looks like there is nothing to be learned from it.

    For example, if someone is presented with an objection to a position, and instead of creatively meeting the objection, they just repeat their position, as if asserting a conclusion is the same as justifying it, then it is like, "well, I'm wasting my time."

    I do like to talk to people who either know more than I do, and/or are mentally active instead of passive. Intelligence is meeting problems in a fresh, and maybe even risky way, instead of using ideas as some sort of security blanket, burying an entrenched perspective in a cocoon of words.

  5. #5
    Pumpernickel
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    ^ super ESTJ

  6. #6
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHBowden View Post
    murkrow--

    I don't value "value systems," because some cultures are objectively superior to other cultures. Inuit culture has yet to produce a Dante, a Galileo, a Michelangelo, or a Brunelleschi. And I'm just comparing them to a single European city.
    What a load of crap. You should state what this superiority is, in terms of how it relates to cultures, as an universal operational definiton.

    And, let's completely ignore this thing called "influence" - that unlike Italy, Inuits up in the far, far, north are much less likely to be exposed to.

    So, I'd also like you to outline how you see something as a distinct isolated "culture" (no noise from other "cultures", what the parameters of such a "culture" is), and how this ties into your evaluation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Her example seems a good one of why competition is not a "natural law" of human society as many pseudo-philosophers claim.
    It's not pseudo-philosophy. It's espoused in biology, evolution, sociology, anthropology, psychology, philosophy, and more....

    Cooperation and competition are the two driving forces that navigate human motivation, in terms of social interactions. Darwin would be so ashamed of you.

    ***

    As for the OP:

    Like Jennifer said, when the premise from which each of our discussion points originate cannot be comprehended nor acknowledged by the other, or, certain assumptions held by the other are seen as completely irrelevant, and/or ridiculous (illogical, irrational); it's time to stop. Or keep on repeating the same point, over and over.

  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Like Jennifer said, when the premise from which each of our discussion points originate cannot be comprehended nor acknowledged by the other, or, certain assumptions held by the other are seen as completely irrelevant, and/or ridiculous (illogical, irrational); it's time to stop. Or keep on repeating the same point, over and over.
    I think that's basically what happens in US politics.

    The two polarized factions cannot agree or acknowledge the initial premises of the other... so during elections it's merely two people screaming out their viewpoint and trying to make the other just look bad, as part of an all-out war for one side to grab power and then use it. Negotiation still occurs, but only because the system is setup in a way that sometimes you just need more support... and then people merely do trade-offs or wrangle tit-for-tat for things.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    It's not pseudo-philosophy. It's espoused in biology, evolution, sociology, anthropology, psychology, philosophy, and more....
    Yes it's very easy to just name "sociology", "psychology", "anthropology", "biology"and "philosophy" without saying which thinkers you are talking about. I ahppen to have read Marxists in all of those disciplines though (including biology), who disagree with you.

    Darwin would be so ashamed of you.
    Really? On what basis?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Really? On what basis?
    Sexual selection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Yes it's very easy to just name "sociology", "psychology", "anthropology", "biology"and "philosophy" without saying which thinkers you are talking about. I ahppen to have read Marxists in all of those disciplines though (including biology), who disagree with you.
    It's so apparent and obvious that I didn't think names needed to be said.

    But, off the top of my head, any theorists who've written on power (dynamics) would be a good start. Start with Foucault, I like him.

    This is also the reason Marxism is an amazing theory/ideal, but, any time it's been practiced, it inevitably does not maintain such ideal.

    Welcome to the real world. I don't yet know if we're glad to have you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think that's basically what happens in US politics.

    The two polarized factions cannot agree or acknowledge the initial premises of the other... so during elections it's merely two people screaming out their viewpoint and trying to make the other just look bad, as part of an all-out war for one side to grab power and then use it. Negotiation still occurs, but only because the system is setup in a way that sometimes you just need more support... and then people merely do trade-offs or wrangle tit-for-tat for things.
    Yup, it's like parallel pontificating yet both sides think (want us to think?) it's a discourse.

  10. #10
    Pumpernickel
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    For me its usually when someone starts to claim something as "objectively superior", because then you know that person is SO personally and emotionally involved in the issue that they don't even realize that their side is just their opinion.... and really how do you argue with someone who has taken such a stance?

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